Is engine braking bad? I mean really braking by the engine...

[Afan]

It's already well known that engine braking is not bad for the motorcycle. We all agree on that. But recently friend of mine and I had a talk, while we were riding, that maybe what I'm doing maybe, just maybe could harm my NC700X DCT.
I ride my bike in Manual mode most of the time. And I get the habit to brake by the engine, very often. Like, if the curve is approaching I would shift down a gear or two, if slowly approach the light I would down shift, etc. Front/rear brakes use when the distance is not enough to use the engine to brake.
I found that about engine braking when riding of the Trail of the Dragon - I almost didn't use the brake at all. It was much smoother than the section before I figure it out. And no fear of locking the wheel. So far, last 2 years, don't have any issue with that kind of riding.
Only thing I'm working on right now is to making a habit to give a little squeeze of front or rear brake, just a little bit to turn the brake lights on, to signal vehicles behind me that I'm braking.

So, opinions?

UPDATE: I was shifting down and braking by the engine on my previous bike too, ST1100, but not so much like on NC, because on NC is so convenient, less "complicated", easier and faster...

 

[dduelin]

Because the fundamental design feature of DCT has two mainshafts with gears 1, 3, 5 on one and 2, 4, and 6th on the other with the next lowest gear already engaged and spinning at the exact proper speed on the opposite mainshaft and given the PCM will not allow a downshift that exceeds programmed parameters of rpm and speed my opinion is manually downshifting the gears for additional engine braking does no harm at all. I did it often on my DCT and almost all the time when riding fast on technical roads. The PCM programming is rather conservative when left to it's own ideas about downshifting but the engineers also programmed in some "rpm headroom" and allowed us to override the PCM when conditions call for it.

There is always the debate "brake pads are cheaper than transmissions" but if performance riding is part of what you use a motorcycle for then you have to learn to rev match gears and utilize engine braking to extract maximum performance from a manually shifted transmission. I've put more than 100,000 miles on several motorcycles using quite a lot of engine braking so at least those bike were built to handle the stresses.

 

[Afan]

There is always the debate "brake pads are cheaper than transmissions"

Yes, that's how the conversation started

 

[dduelin]

Yes, that's how the conversation started

Might as well throw tires in there as well.

 

[GregC]

I use engine braking all the time, and especially riding the twisties in the mountains. No issues at all on my 2015 DCT. I think a lot of the "conventional" wisdom on this dates back decades and doesn't reflect the quality of current motorcycle engines and transmissions.

 

[New Commuter700]

30 years ago I had a little Susucki 250. It. was. crap. but I had fun with it anyway. Everyday I would come home and as I approached the left turn into the trailer park I lived in I would drop gears quickly, dumping the clutch between each gear until I was going faster than the rear wheel was spinning. I would slide into the park sideways leaving a beautiful skid mark. After a few months of that I had quite a bit of rubber down and it became more difficult to slide in.

Now that is engine braking that is hard on the bike.

 

[BallAquatics]

 

[670cc]

Between slowing with brakes or slowing with engine braking, you have a choice between wearing your brake pads or not wearing anything. I think the answer is obvious. Engine braking is preferred.

I practice smooth riding. It's not about how quickly I ride, it's how smoothly I ride. Engine braking is a tool for smooth riding. Using the brakes means I lose points in my smooth riding game, so I avoid that. That probably explains why my front and rear brake pads are barely half worn at 47,000 miles.

Looking outside the motorcycle world for comparisons, my motorhome has a tow/haul transmission mode. In tow/haul mode, the transmission automatically downshifts aggressively when the brakes are pressed, intentionally utilizing more engine braking. With engine braking assistance, I can slow the motorhome to a stop with hardly any brakes needed. This is a big advantage, as overuse of the brakes on a heavy truck easily leads to brake overheating and damage. The point is, the vehicle is designed to use engine braking to assist in stopping the vehicle. Engine braking is a good thing.

 

[Afan]

Thanks to all. I feel much better now.

 

[brb]

The old question used to be when going thru a corner do you use high gear & low rpm or low gear & high rpm? When this was asked at a picnic years ago all the""bikers" said high gear low rpm then a Old Lady(as in age) responded "Low gear high rpm". To that I said correct and who taught you to drive? She then told us all that when she learned how to drive there were no automatic transmissions and this was standard practice. When a engine is at a higher rpm its ability to increase or decrease rpm is better. I agree with 670cc you should be riding smoothly. If you are trying to stop as fast as you can engine braking with braking is the ticket. But if you are trying to ride better then I would recommend being in the right gear for the corner. The NC700 is not known for its braking,even with a metal brake hose and adjustable lever(best and cheap update). I would recommend practice in a large and empty parking lot to hone your skills. There are many drills you can do, Jerry the motorman Palladino has many videos and Cycleworld magazine has had articles for years. Practice practice practice you will find what works and what does not work for you. It will be second nature. When I ride fast,manual trans. I down shift to the right gear for the corner while applying brakes. In the corner, trail braking I find the apex and accelerate out. When riding normal ill roll off the throttle use a little brake and roll thru the corner. Fast riders use a lot of brake. I have been replacing my brakes Ft & Rr every 15K.

 

[Afan]

The old question used to be when going thru a corner do you use high gear & low rpm or low gear & high rpm? When this was asked at a picnic years ago all the""bikers" said high gear low rpm then a Old Lady(as in age) responded "Low gear high rpm". To that I said correct and who taught you to drive? She then told us all that when she learned how to drive there were no automatic transmissions and this was standard practice. When a engine is at a higher rpm its ability to increase or decrease rpm is better. I agree with 670cc you should be riding smoothly. If you are trying to stop as fast as you can engine braking with braking is the ticket. But if you are trying to ride better then I would recommend being in the right gear for the corner. The NC700 is not known for its braking,even with a metal brake hose and adjustable lever(best and cheap update). I would recommend practice in a large and empty parking lot to hone your skills. There are many drills you can do, Jerry the motorman Palladino has many videos and Cycleworld magazine has had articles for years. Practice practice practice you will find what works and what does not work for you. It will be second nature. When I ride fast,manual trans. I down shift to the right gear for the corner while applying brakes. In the corner, trail braking I find the apex and accelerate out. When riding normal ill roll off the throttle use a little brake and roll thru the corner. Fast riders use a lot of brake. I have been replacing my brakes Ft & Rr every 15K.

Brb, it's not about the execution, it's about "am I ruining my engine by engine braking all the time?".
Like, imagine riding The Tail of the Dragon, or any other similar curvy road. When entering a curve you have to lower your speed, you downshift, and, once you're out of the curve you give some throttle, upshift and speed up, etc. Now, my question would be (of course we are talking about the DCT engines): are you braking with your brakes before you enter the curve, and THEN downshift (if in the S mode the engine downshifts by itself, or if you are in the M mode you downshift manually), or you manually downshift before you enter the curve (you engine brake) and then upshift at the end of the curve - no brakes involved? I'm doing the latter.

And, regarding the "smooth ride" I learned that from my car instructor, 40 years ago: "The best driver is the one who gets to B from A without using brake". I never ride fast, speed is not my thing, and I rather start earlier and give myself some time than "rush" myself. I don't ride on Interstates (except when going to work, to be sure I'm on time), and I'm one of those guys "The Journey is the part of the Travel".

 

[mtnbiker1185]

While I can't comment on if it is hard on your engine, I would caution against not applying the brakes at least a little bit. A motorcycle safety class i went to pointed out that it is more difficult to see when motorcycles change speed and you increase your chances of being rear ended if you don't at least apply the brakes enough to engage the brake lights when slowing down.

 

[brb]

Afan, sorry i can get lost in my thoughts at times. Unless the engine is breaking in you should have no problem with engine braking ruining the engine. Sounds like your just selecting the lower gear for better control.

 

[rpvanoyen]

After most has been told by others, let me put a coin in the bucket too.
IMO the best advantage of using the engine braking force (on tarmac that is), is keeping full control of the bike as traction is hardly compromised by the lack of shifting wheel pressure. Also braking the rear wheel (by engine or brake pads) improves the stability of any bike in general. I often use the engine brake in fast turns to control my speed for maintaining the perfect line.
Going downhill I only make use of the engine brake to prevent me from going too fast. If I need to activate the physical brakes, than that's because I made a mistake (wrong gear for the downhill grade or a miscalculation in stopping distance. ;-)
In very tight low speed turns (hairpins) I control the desired speed by apply the rear brake while keeping the throttle a tad open.

Of course the above works on all bikes.

 

[Virgil2014]

I constantly Use engine braking. To let cagers and others know that I’m reducing speed, I installed the “Smart Brake Module” from Safer-Turn. It activates the brake lights on deceleration. I’ve installed one of these on my last three motorcycles.

 

[Jphenry]

There is a guy ( forum member ) that rides a nc700x at Barbers on track days. I believe it is a DCT. Look up his videos on You Tube. A great lesson on downshifting.

 

[halfSpinDoctor]

Alright I'll bite: To address the comment "brake pads are cheaper than transmissions"; when you slow down with brakes, the material of the pad rubs against the rotor, dissipating the energy of motion into heat via friction and wearing down the material in the pad. Once the material is used up, you replace the pad.

When you engine brake, the engine is pumping air from the intake to the exhaust through a restricted orifice (the closed throttle plate on the intake, causing an intake manifold vacuum the engine has to work against). The energy of motion is dissipated by pumping air, rather than creating friction between parts. The engine is bathed in oil, so there should be no metal-on-metal rubbing or wearing down of parts when this happens. Also the engine is under equal or greater load when supplied with fuel to create power.

It's not that you are choosing to wear out your brakes vs. your engine or transmission, you are actually dissipating the energy in a different way.

 

[NCGUY]

Hi Afan,
If you are riding aggressively and attacking the corners on roads like the Dragon, Cherohala Skyway, or many of the roads in the Appalachian mountains or in SW Wisconsin you should be using both brskes and engine braking. It won't hurt your engine one little bit. That's why they use a pressurized oil system in the engine design.
You should decelerate by using engine braking and by using trail braking through the corner until you can see the exit. Once you see the exit path then you are off the brakes and accelerating with the throttle. You can do this because your engine is at a high rpm DUE TO ENGINE BRAKING and it will be able to deliver the torque you need and it won't bog down or shudder... which will hurt your engine.
Take care,
Guy

 

[Therapy]

By now I have forgotten what the original question was....Oh yea! the transmission. No problems with that.
What I have found is that even the DCT skids the tires a bit. Especially in the sport mode. Mine is 2013 so only one sport mode. This is what the DCT does on it's own. If you downshift with the button/lever it is even more aggressive. While even smooth down shifting will produce some lower wheel speed as opposed to rolling speed, aggressive downshifting takes a larger toll than most admit.
It took me many years to finally admit it, cause, you know, riding fast/hard is fun, etc.

 

[670cc]

By now I have forgotten what the original question was....Oh yea! the transmission. No problems with that.
What I have found is that even the DCT skids the tires a bit. Especially in the sport mode. Mine is 2013 so only one sport mode. This is what the DCT does on it's own. If you downshift with the button/lever it is even more aggressive. While even smooth down shifting will produce some lower wheel speed as opposed to rolling speed, aggressive downshifting takes a larger toll than most admit.
It took me many years to finally admit it, cause, you know, riding fast/hard is fun, etc.

That is interesting information about the DCT behavior. With a DCT, you actually have no control over clutch engagement. With a manual transmission, on downshifts you can match the revs and control the clutch engagement and minimize the wheel hop or the impact on the transmission and final drive. With DCT in manual mode, can you blip the throttle at the time you press the minus button to smooth out the downshift?