Gas pricing

[melensdad]

In the meantime we should do what we can to reduce our consumption individually and thus be role models for others. I am a big proponent of geothermal and as such talk to everyone I can about the benefits and electric savings I’ve experienced. We must be the change we want to see. Otherwise it will entrench resistance to any change and it becomes a political issue rather than a uniting one.

I agree, adapting and conserving it wise. But my pick up truck, which gets 22mpg in actual driving, is only a tiny issue.

But HUGE amounts of food are produced with DIESEL tractors, shipped on DIESEL trains to terminals where it is moved by DIESEL trucks. The actual production of food requires that we fertilize the soil because our planet population has grown beyond our ability to feed the planet using less-than-modern farming solutions. so NATURAL GAS is required to produce inexpensive nitrogen based fertilizers. GASOLINE is required for many of the smaller engines used in agriculture.

Farms in North America, South America and Europe are actually modernizing at a pretty rapid pace to increase efficiency but in many parts of the world the farms are re-using our antiquated technologies because that is all they can afford.

Increasing fuel prices, and people who gleefully support that through artificial means, will soon have blood on their hands as people starve to death. Literally starve to death. We are NOW at a situation where fertilizer prices have skyrocketed, and some of that is due to a war, but a good bit of that is simply due to unaffordable Natural Gas, which has been exacerbated by regulations starting before the war. In many areas of the world we are seeing fewer crops planted because fertilizer is unaffordable. Add in the shortages of not only fertilizer but also corn, wheat, sunflower, and other grain products that will be created by the invasion of Ukraine and we have the recipe for starvation and civil unrest on a scale that we have never seen before. This is all both predictable and preventable. Starvation will be worst in the middle eastern nations and some areas of Africa. Food prices are already skyrocketing around the globe, all of this is because of fuel price manipulation caused by regulation.

If people continue to cheer on high fuel prices just because they want everyone riding around in electric cars then they are advocating for something akin to genocide.

 

[670cc]

I agree, adapting and conserving it wise. But my pick up truck, which gets 22mpg in actual driving, is only a tiny issue.

But HUGE amounts of food are produced with DIESEL tractors, shipped on DIESEL trains to terminals where it is moved by DIESEL trucks. The actual production of food requires that we fertilize the soil because our planet population has grown beyond our ability to feed the planet using less-than-modern farming solutions. so NATURAL GAS is required to produce inexpensive nitrogen based fertilizers. GASOLINE is required for many of the smaller engines used in agriculture.

Farms in North America, South America and Europe are actually modernizing at a pretty rapid pace to increase efficiency but in many parts of the world the farms are re-using our antiquated technologies because that is all they can afford.

Increasing fuel prices, and people who gleefully support that through artificial means, will soon have blood on their hands as people starve to death. Literally starve to death. We are NOW at a situation where fertilizer prices have skyrocketed, and some of that is due to a war, but a good bit of that is simply due to unaffordable Natural Gas, which has been exacerbated by regulations starting before the war. In many areas of the world we are seeing fewer crops planted because fertilizer is unaffordable. Add in the shortages of not only fertilizer but also corn, wheat, sunflower, and other grain products that will be created by the invasion of Ukraine and we have the recipe for starvation and civil unrest on a scale that we have never seen before. This is all both predictable and preventable. Starvation will be worst in the middle eastern nations and some areas of Africa. Food prices are already skyrocketing around the globe, all of this is because of fuel price manipulation caused by regulation.

If people continue to cheer on high fuel prices just because they want everyone riding around in electric cars then they are advocating for something akin to genocide.

When the climate in parts of the world no longer supports agriculture or even habitation due to climate change brought about by the burning of fossil fuel, who will have the blood on their hands? The rich nations that for years freely burned fossil fuel because it was so low priced?

Again, I see it as short term and long term problems, and I am much worried about the long term. Ultimately I think the Earth's population will be forced to self correct. People will starve. People will fight over scant resources. It will not be pretty.

 

[mzflorida]

When the climate in parts of the world no longer supports agriculture or even habitation due to climate change brought about by the burning of fossil fuel, who will have the blood on their hands? The rich nations that for years freely burned fossil fuel because it was so low priced?

Again, I see it as short term and long term problems, and I am much more worried about the long term. Ultimately I think the Earth's population will be forced to self correct. People will starve. People will fight over scant resources. It will not be pretty.

If there is blood to assign to hands, there will be more on our own than on our lifted-2500-truck-driving counterparties. Most motorcycles emit more harmful elements of greenhouse gases per mile than most large vehicles do. A 60 mile ride on even a modern motorcycle can emit as much greenhouse gas as a 600 mile ride in a SUV, passenger car, pickup truck.

I'm kind of a tree hugger (neither a liberal nor a conservative though; just reasonable and rational) but was out motorcycle shopping today, knowing the above. I guess I look at my conservationist position like I look at my religion. I'm a Catholic, probably not the best one, but do my part as best as I can.

 

[Rabbit]

If there is blood to assign to hands, there will be more on our own than on our lifted-2500-truck-driving counterparties. Most motorcycles emit more harmful elements of greenhouse gases per mile than most large vehicles do. A 60 mile ride on even a modern motorcycle can emit as much greenhouse gas as a 600 mile ride in a SUV, passenger car, pickup truck.

I'm kind of a tree hugger (neither a liberal nor a conservative though; just reasonable and rational) but was out motorcycle shopping today, knowing the above. I guess I look at my conservationist position like I look at my religion. I'm a Catholic, probably not the best one, but do my part as best as I can.

Are emissions standards different for bikes than cars? How do we emit more harmful gases? Especially because most bikes are still more efficient than the vast majority of cars. I’m genuinely curious about this!

 

[lootzyan]

...most bikes are still more efficient than the vast majority of cars. I’m genuinely curious about this!

It is rather easy to calculate. Take an average motorcycle, e.g. around 700cc / 600 lb / 60 mpg and compare it to the average sedan car 2500cc / 3500 lb / 30 mpg. For further comparison, add a 150cc lawn mower with fuel economy probably less than 2 mpg.

 

[mzflorida]

Are emissions standards different for bikes than cars? How do we emit more harmful gases? Especially because most bikes are still more efficient than the vast majority of cars. I’m genuinely curious about this!

The standards are different, but it also goes to capabilities between the two platforms (among other differences) to effectively reduce emissions. You can go to EPA, DOT, Federal Register, Google Scholar, to view the differences in requirements.

 

[Oldbear]

Like melonsdad I live in the country. 5 miles each way to the nearest anything in a Very small town, 24 miles to BG (city of 70k). The only deliveries out here are from UPS and FedEx. Lots of BIG diesel tractors farming lots of acres-next door neighbor farms almost 4000 acres. His family also operates 3 dairies with 1000 head milked daily. They grow their own food for the cattle and still sell vast quantities of corn, soybeans and canola every year. Products are all hauled away by heavy diesel truck. Operations run year around, even when storms take out the power grid, (which they then pick up with their diesel generators. This one family operation feeds God knows how many people every year, but it takes a lot of fuel to make it happen…

 

[melensdad]

When the climate in parts of the world no longer supports agriculture or even habitation due to climate change brought about by the burning of fossil fuel, who will have the blood on their hands? The rich nations that for years freely burned fossil fuel because it was so low priced?

Again, I see it as short term and long term problems, and I am much worried about the long term. Ultimately I think the Earth's population will be forced to self correct. People will starve. People will fight over scant resources. It will not be pretty.

Allow me to reframe some of this:

"When the climate in parts of the world no longer supports agriculture" . . . the reality is that many of those areas never really supported agriculture EVER but were made into habitat land by the introduction of aquifers, modern soil practices and fertilizer. But without access to fertilizer those lands will likely become non-productive again. I cannot UNDERSTATE this, we have a population that has grown to the point where we need fertilizers to feed the world. Much of the main source of fertilizer is from nitrogen sourced products and most of that comes from Natural Gas.

"The rich nations that for years freely burned fossil fuel because it was so low priced?" . . . all nations evolve and civilization went from burning trees to burning whale oil to burning coal to burning heavy oil and we evolved, durning and since the industrial revolution to cleaner burning more environmentally friendly sources of fuel like Natural Gas, cleaner coal technologies, hydroelectric and nuclear. We now have among the cleanest environments but it is actually the centralized governments with the dirty cities. Look to China and North Korea which are literally open up new dirty coal electrical generation plants every week because they were given a free pass in the Paris Accords, Russia also doesn't follow those and had plenty of dirty energy. The wealthy nations self penalize their citizens and other nations, which are very developed, laugh at us.

"and I am much worried about the long term . . . Earth's population will be forced to self correct . . ." Just to be clear, and please feel free to mark the date, next year there will be mass starvation in the middle east and parts of Africa based on planting that is being planned right now. But you are much more worried about the long term.

Sorry but some of this seems like western hang wringing, nearly revisionist and other parts sound simply cruel.

 

[melensdad]

Like melonsdad I live in the country. 5 miles each way to the nearest anything in a Very small town, 24 miles to BG (city of 70k). The only deliveries out here are from UPS and FedEx. Lots of BIG diesel tractors farming lots of acres-next door neighbor farms almost 4000 acres. His family also operates 3 dairies with 1000 head milked daily. They grow their own food for the cattle and still sell vast quantities of corn, soybeans and canola every year. Products are all hauled away by heavy diesel truck. Operations run year around, even when storms take out the power grid, (which they then pick up with their diesel generators. This one family operation feeds God knows how many people every year, but it takes a lot of fuel to make it happen…

Agreed!!! We may live miles apart but we have the same type of neighbors.

You forgot to mention all the fertilizer they use. That is derived from Natural Gas, the same oil wells that often bring us crude oil that is refined into diesel.

I think people are in for a huge SHOCK to their standard of living as Western nations will have food but it will NEARLY DOUBLE in price from 2020 to 2024. Those who can least afford it will be hit the hardest. But it is easy to tell them to buy a $40,000 to $60,000 electric car.

Meanwhile these same people already have stretched budgets that will be shredded by current fuel and food prices that are heavily dependent upon fuel. They can barely afford a cheap used car, but the government is giving tax credits to the wealthy so they can buy electric cars. This is the exact definition of taxing the poor to give to the wealthy.

 

[Oldbear]

Agreed!!! We may live miles apart but we have the same type of neighbors.

You forgot to mention all the fertilizer they use. That is derived from Natural Gas, the same oil wells that often bring us crude oil that is refined into diesel.

I think people are in for a huge SHOCK to their standard of living as Western nations will have food but it will NEARLY DOUBLE in price from 2020 to 2024. Those who can least afford it will be hit the hardest. But it is easy to tell them to buy a $40,000 to $60,000 electric car.

Meanwhile these same people already have stretched budgets that will be shredded by current fuel and food prices that are heavily dependent upon fuel. They can barely afford a cheap used car, but the government is giving tax credits to the wealthy so they can buy electric cars. This is the exact definition of taxing the poor to give to the wealthy.

Cannot agree more. Methinks some folks are going into this whole thing with blinders on, and the awakening is going to be ugly. Makes me glad I’m 71 not 21

 

[TheIronWarrior]

Probably won't affect my riding, but I might actually come closer to breaking even on the cost of ownership considering I get twice the distance out of a measure of gas on the NC compared to my wagen.
Of course I already tell my wife the bike pays for itself in fuel savings, even though it might not be... perfectly accurate...

 

[Rabbit]

Probably won't affect my riding, but I might actually come closer to breaking even on the cost of ownership considering I get twice the distance out of a measure of gas on the NC compared to my wagen.
Of course I already tell my wife the bike pays for itself in fuel savings, even though it might not be... perfectly accurate...

I actually did a breakdown of cost per mile of my car vs my bike and it Costs me 18 cents per mile to ride the bike and 23 cents per mile to drive. It really does save money, all things considered

 

[itsmenc700]

The part no one states - this planet has way to many humans on it - like it or not.
With fires, floods, droughts, and bad weather, the food supply will suffer, and many wont make it.
The planet can not sustain such high number of us - period.
So you can blame global warming, or high use of oil/gas or what ever, but its the very high population that is hurting us.

 

[TheIronWarrior]

I actually did a breakdown of cost per mile of my car vs my bike and it Costs me 18 cents per mile to ride the bike and 23 cents per mile to drive. It really does save money, all things considered

What was considered in your breakdown?
Are you looking at total cost of ownership, or just fuel/permit/insurance?
I'm only curious because I find it hard to believe anyone will actually SAVE money by owning a motorcycle even if they almost entirely replace all of their car trips with bike trips.

For example, if the only thing you didn't consider in your cost is purchase price, and assuming the average driver travels about 12500mi/yr, you save about $625/yr if you consider replacing the entire mileage with bike. You'd be hard pressed to make up the purchase price of the bike in a reasonable time frame.

However, I can assure you that if you start with the assumption of "I have a bike anyway" just about any trip you take the bike instead of the car is going to save you a bit.

 

[670cc]

The part no one states - this planet has way to many humans on it - like it or not.
With fires, floods, droughts, and bad weather, the food supply will suffer, and many wont make it.
The planet can not sustain such high number of us - period.
So you can blame global warming, or high use of oil/gas or what ever, but its the very high population that is hurting us.

I mostly agree with your thoughts on this and I have been surprised the population topic is not more often mentioned or focused on. I seem to recall a study/analysis that concluded there was reason to think the world human population would max out at around 10 billion (it's about 7.94 billion today per https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ ). As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I think there will be a correction, much like you said, "With fires, floods, droughts, and bad weather, the food supply will suffer, and many wont make it." The course has already been set by past policies and practices, and by continuously kicking the responsibility can down the road to future generations.

We humans have collectively put ourselves in the current situation. We are stuck today needing energy, in it's many forms. Conservation and chosing sustainable practices is about the best we can do.

 

[670cc]

What was considered in your breakdown?
Are you looking at total cost of ownership, or just fuel/permit/insurance?
I'm only curious because I find it hard to believe anyone will actually SAVE money by owning a motorcycle even if they almost entirely replace all of their car trips with bike trips.

For example, if the only thing you didn't consider in your cost is purchase price, and assuming the average driver travels about 12500mi/yr, you save about $625/yr if you consider replacing the entire mileage with bike. You'd be hard pressed to make up the purchase price of the bike in a reasonable time frame.

However, I can assure you that if you start with the assumption of "I have a bike anyway" just about any trip you take the bike instead of the car is going to save you a bit.

For motorcycles, tires and other consumables, and more frequent maintenance are what hurts regarding potential savings.

 

[TNHoosier]

The other thing nobody has mentioned is that this planet, like all planets have a life span and aging process. This planet has seen an ice age, expansive floods, etc. We only have insight to a snapshot of it's life.

This may be bigger than all of us.

 

[TheIronWarrior]

For motorcycles, tires and other consumables, and more frequent maintenance is what hurts regarding potential savings.

Agreed, which is why I find it hard to believe the bike being overall cheaper to run, especially if you compare it to the scenario where you have no bike (total zero cost of ownership).
Hell, 2 tires for my NC costs almost as much as 4 tires for my wagen. The only thing the bike has going for it really is that the VW "needs" the special European oil.

 

[670cc]

The other thing nobody has mentioned is that this planet, like all planets have a life span and aging process. This planet has seen an ice age, expansive floods, etc. We only have insight to a snapshot of it's life.

This may be bigger than all of us.

Good point. The planet presently becoming briefly overrun and modified by biological life forms is perhaps just a very, very small part of the planet's long term existence. Sigh. Gas prices now seem like such a trivial matter.

 

[Rabbit]

What was considered in your breakdown?
Are you looking at total cost of ownership, or just fuel/permit/insurance?
I'm only curious because I find it hard to believe anyone will actually SAVE money by owning a motorcycle even if they almost entirely replace all of their car trips with bike trips.

For example, if the only thing you didn't consider in your cost is purchase price, and assuming the average driver travels about 12500mi/yr, you save about $625/yr if you consider replacing the entire mileage with bike. You'd be hard pressed to make up the purchase price of the bike in a reasonable time frame.

However, I can assure you that if you start with the assumption of "I have a bike anyway" just about any trip you take the bike instead of the car is going to save you a bit.

I considered for my Bike: tires, oil changes, cost per mile to own (depreciation= purchase price/expected lifetime of bike), sprockets and chains, valve checks.

I didn’t include insurance or yearly tags because that is a fixed cost and you pay regardless of miles driven. The big savings comes from gas: almost 6 cents a mile for me and depreciation at 4.8 cents per mile. So I’m saving almost 7 dollars every day on my commute. If I learn to do valve checks myself it reduces another 1.5 cents per mile. All other maintenance costs (filters, spark plugs and the like) are a break even with cars. I also re looked at the math and tags + insurance would add another 1.3 cents per mile or there about.