Stopping at a light? You're probably doing it wrong.

[http404]

How hard (or easy) is it just to leave the bike in gear and not even mess with the shifter at all?


When the title says you might be doing it wrong, that is likely to stir an emotional response from some people. The thread‘s replies indicate that many riders have given thought to this scenario and have established their ways to deal with the risks.

I thought it was clickbait-ish but I did say might. I thought it was interesting contrary information (to what I've always heard) worth the discussion.

 

[dduelin]

I thought it was clickbait-ish but I did say might. I thought it was interesting contrary information (to what I've always heard) worth the discussion.

Keep 'em coming... the forum needs a topic like this now and then. It was worth the discussion in my opinion.

 

[http404]

Keep 'em coming... the forum needs a topic like this now and then. It was worth the discussion in my opinion.

Thanks…and I just realized I didn’t say might I said probably doing it wrong, a little more incendiary than I intended. Oh well, not the first time I stepped in it and surely not the last.

 

[mzflorida]

Gosh, how hard is it to watch the light or two cars ahead move and click into first before it's time to move? I'm suffering poster's remorse from this whole thing.

Been there with post post regrets. The
Positive is that there is a hearty discussion on something that could keep a rider out of harms way. I appreciate your post and the discussion.

I think that @the Ferret is a modern day philosopher with his recent post about riders naturally over complicating stuff!

 

[Deleted member 1183]

Didn't watch the video but my own practice is to put the bike in neutral if I am likely to be longer than a minute or so at the stop. Less than that and I stay in gear.

 

[itsmenc700]

So like use the kill switch or not to stop the engine, loud pipes, loud horn, is the dress blue or white - this is right there as well.
WHO cares!?
WE all are different.
We will not agree on much.
Let's ride!

 

[670cc]

So like use the kill switch or not to stop the engine, loud pipes, loud horn, is the dress blue or white - this is right there as well.
WHO cares!?
WE all are different.
We will not agree on much.
Let's ride!

You ask who cares? I counted around a dozen members who cared enough about the topic to share their thoughts, INCLUDING YOU, in post #10:

I dont mean to start a fight, and I understand leaving it in gear, and I have heard the "in case I need to get out of the way" story as well, having said that -
1 - your pointed forward waiting for the light
2 - IF you see the guy behind you either coming up not stopping - the reaction time is small
3 - NO way you can move in time to avoid getting hit. You might not get hit. The bike will and take you down.
There just isnt enough time, and IF you spend all your time watching the mirrors, that is not very safe.
Just my two cents.

 

[itsmenc700]

Yea its getting out of hand - dont you think??

 

[670cc]

Yea its getting out of hand - dont you think??

Is there some limit you feel you need to impose on the number of allowed comments? For someone that asks”who cares?”, is having too long of a thread bothering you? You were allowed to make your comment, so now we should wrap it up?

 

[hulkss]

When stopping, I slow down until my speed is zero.

 

[http404]

When stopping, I slow down until my speed is zero.

Then you're doing it right!

 

[Rabbit]

When stopping, I slow down until my speed is zero.

So that’s what I was doing wrong. Live and learn!

 

[Lomunchi]

I do like SMIDSYs!
One thing to change for me: I keep my front brake on just so my brake light's on so the traffic behind me knows I'm stopped (till someone's fully pulled up). I get the logic of using the rear brake instead for the same purpose.

 

[670cc]

I do like SMIDSYs!
One thing to change for me: I keep my front brake on just so my brake light's on so the traffic behind me knows I'm stopped (till someone's fully pulled up). I get the logic of using the rear brake instead for the same purpose.

As I didn’t watch the video, what is the logic for using the rear brake instead of the front for illuminating the brake light? It seems illogical to me.

 

[http404]

As I didn’t watch the video, what is the logic for using the rear brake instead of the front for illuminating the brake light? It seems illogical to me.

It's that with the front brake applied you can be flipped over if hit from behind.

 

[670cc]

It's that with the front brake applied you can be flipped over if hit from behind.

Pretend that a car bumper hits the middle of the rear tire, the most aft piece of the motorcycle. Motorcycle is pushed forward. Front tire simply slides on the pavement even with the brake applied. At the time of impact, due to the force from the rear, the rider loses grip on the front brake anyway. If anything, it’s possible that the rider goes off the back of the bike with the bike shoved out from under them. I wonder if anyone has done an accurate physics analysis of this hypothetical situation? Important factors are the point of impact above the ground, angle of the impact to the front wheel contact patch, center of mass of the motorcycle with rider on the seat and without, coefficient of friction between the front tire and the pavement, etc.

Think about it. If you can use the front brake, while stopping, to it’s maximum ability just prior to front wheel lockup without the rider going over the bars, how can the front brake and front tire traction have that capability in this rear impact situation? The same front tire traction is likely the deciding factor in both cases. If the front brake and tire can’t put you over the bars while maximum stopping, the front brake and tire can’t put you over the bars by way of a rear impact. As I wrote already, the tire is probably going to slide with the front brake on, and that is even if you manage to hold the front brake on.

I would want both feet on the ground to stabilize the motorcycle in case the rear impact was light, or to facilitate a controlled rapid escape from the pending situation. If this is the same person that suggests putting the bike in neutral at a stop, how do they plan to shift to first gear (assuming it’s a manual transmission), while their right foot is off the ground holding the rear brake? Do some kind of foot dance? Balance the stopped bike in place for a moment?

The advice from the video, as I understand it, is kooky talk, in my opinion. The physics is wrong. But, definitely and as always, everybody is entitled to ride their own ride however they want to ride it.

 

[http404]

Pretend that a car bumper hits the middle of the rear tire, the most aft piece of the motorcycle. Motorcycle is pushed forward. Front tire simply slides on the pavement even with the brake applied. At the time of impact, due to the force from the rear, the rider losses grip on the front brake anyway. If anything, it’s possible that the rider goes off the back of the bike with the bike shoved out from under them. I wonder if anyone has done an accurate physics analysis of this hypothetical situation? Important factors are the point of impact above the ground, angle of the impact to the front wheel contact patch, center of mass of the motorcycle with rider on the seat and without, coefficient of friction between the front tire and the pavement, etc.

Think about it. If you can use the front brake, while stopping, to it’s maximum ability just prior to front wheel lockup without the rider going over the bars, how can the front brake and front tire traction have that capability in this rear impact situation? The same front tire traction is likely the deciding factor in both cases. If the front brake and tire can’t put you over the bars while maximum stopping, the front brake and tire can’t put you over the bars by way of a rear impact. As I wrote already, the tire is probably going to slide with the front brake on, and that is even if you manage to hold the front brake on.

I would want both feet on the ground to stabilize the motorcycle in case the rear impact was light, or to facilitate a controlled rapid escape from the pending situation. If this is the same person that suggests putting the bike in neutral at a stop, how do they plan to shift to first gear (assuming it’s a manual transmission), while their right foot is off the ground holding the rear brake? Do some kind of foot dance? Balance the stopped bike in place for a moment?

The advice from the video, as I understand it, is kooky talk, in my opinion. But, definitely and as always, everybody is entitled to ride their own ride however they want to ride it.

It's how London bike cops do it and how they teach it. I guess it works for them. It would take less than two minutes to hear exactly what their reasoning is. It seems that all of us have our own ways and reasons that work for us and that's the spice of life. We're all still here to talk about it.

 

[Gixus]

Yes, muscle memory training is everything and playing the What If & What Would I Do Game on a regular basis is an important street riding strategy. A rider on another forum told a story about riding down the interstate when "suddenly all I saw was brake lights in all three lanes. There was nothing I could do, every lane was blocked." He locked up the brakes on his non-ABS bike and went down. As I saw that thread I had just read a book about how the human brain allows us to ride motorcycles to the level we do and it had just such as this example of how to see the escape lanes that are there but our brains tend not to see. (The Upper Half Of The Motorcycle by Bernt Speigel, Whitehorse Press) When panicked our brains focus on the threat unless we consciously look for an escape route and release the panic. I posted this and the unfortunate rider denied the ability to "do anything, there was no where to go." Consider that by design interstates have 12' wide lanes with a 4' to 10' wide paved shoulder on the left and the right shoulder is minimum paved 10'. The width of an average car in the USA is about 6.5', a full size SUV 7', a tractor trailer 8.5'. With a vehicle stopped in each lane there are still escape lanes open right in front of us that are 4' to 6' wide plus the paved shoulders. But the vehicles ahead were not stopped but were decelerating under braking from 70 mph. In that situation closing distance is rapidly shrinking and red lights are everywhere in front of us. Panic sets in and all escape routes close up unless we have "seen" this situation before in our street survival strategizing. Does our brain see a solid wall of steel or a wall with big escape routes in it?

In context of this thread my own strategy is to come to a stop at the edge of my lane behind the vehicle ahead. Clutch in, first gear selected, my threat scan taking in the mirror view every few seconds. I want to see around the vehicle ahead and be best positioned to shoot into the gap ahead if I see a car approaching from behind. that doesn't look like it can or will stop. After a couple vehicles stop behind me I might slip into neutral.

I agree with your post. Muscle memory is very important.

Gosh, how hard is it to watch the light or two cars ahead move and click into first before it's time to move? I'm suffering poster's remorse from this whole thing.

I agree! It’s not a big deal to do it the way shown.

The video shows the London Metropolitan Police using the Roadcraft which they’ve taught for over 60 years. Police officers from other parts of the world attend Hendon to ride/drive the Hendon way. I’ve been riding that way since I was taught Roadcraft many years ago.

The most dangerous riding environment is a big city. Too many distractions and because of the confined spaces, things happen very quickly. When I rode in the city every day, it was rare that some person in a car didn’t come close to striking me.

The main point I feel is to be aware. I don’t personally keep my bike in gear at red lights because I wasn’t taught that and it makes sense to me. It also burns out the thrust bearing on a manual clutch. On the other hand if I rode a DCT, I’d likely leave it in gear, but cover the rear brake.

 

[Gixus]

I leave it in gear.
It's a very rare exception that I click it into neutral.

I ride with a few friends that put it in neutral at stoplights. When the light turns green, I motor away while they monkey around with the shifter and eventually get going. I have seen cars start to go, then have to hit the brakes because one motorcycle out of the group did not move. Seems like added risk to mess with neutral at stop lights. You're a sitting duck. No matter your reaction time to any perceived threat, it will always be longer if you have to put it in gear first before reacting.

If I was one of your riding friends that wouldn’t happen. I sit in neutral on my manual, covering the back brake. I look around checking out the traffic. Especially what’s coming up behind me if I’m the last person in line. Are they looking like they’re not stopping or slowing down? If so, snick into first and be ready to take a gap in front of me.

I observe the lights changing, snick into first, so I’m ready to go on the green. Lights change to green I check to see no one is apparently going to run a red light, then move off when I see it’s safe to do so.

 

[Gixus]

Thanks…and I just realized I didn’t say might I said probably doing it wrong, a little more incendiary than I intended. Oh well, not the first time I stepped in it and surely not the last.

Don’t worry about it. Its just the state of the western world with its uptight political correctness. It appears impossible not to offend someone these days no matter what you say. I’m offended that that you even think that you need to say that you think you’ve “stepped in it.” Please supply apology immediately. . (A wink smiley)