2013 Honda NC 700X DCT Gear shifting error

[Lonesome Rider]

Hello, everybody, I have a Honda 2013 NC 700 X DCT, and I have a Gear shifting problem, I was advised to change the gear shifting motor and the RPM sensor, however, I already did that and it didn't solve the problem..! Can anybody help for advice I am ready to answer any questions about the sequence of the problem until now..
The problem still exists, and the current symptoms are that the bike accepts the shift of the first gear, and as soon as it shifts to the second gear, the gearbox disconnects the shift sequence and continues on the first gear.
About the indications in the dashboard, sometimes it flashes long L later or short L letter, however when the gearbox stop shifting it just continue flashing with a dash ( - ) sign.
Can anyone help or suggest solutions to this problem?
Thank you in advance.

 

[lootzyan]

What is happening with your bike is so unusual that it's hard to decide on any advice at this point.

First of all - you write that: "the indications in the dashboard, sometimes it flashes long L letter or short L letter".
This may only appear in one specific function - "CLUTCH INITIALIZE LEARNING" that "the large" L "(extremely low oil temperature) or small" L " (low oil temperature) is displayed on the shift indicator to indicate that the engine warming up is necessary if it is not warmed ".

Without looking for a meaningful explanation for this, there are questions to ask first:
- Are you the original owner?
- Have there been any major repairs, eg clutch or PCM (Power Control Module) replacement?
- Are you able to interpret the Shift Indicator "-" Blink Pattern (DTC code)? Do you have a Service Manual?

 

[Lonesome Rider]

Hello, Lootzyan,
Thank you for your reply and quick response,
Initially let me answer your questions.
At first, yes I'm the original owner, I personally imported this bike from the United States 2013.


Secondly, no there were no major repairs before this incident, actually, no repairs at all.
And, yes I have the service manual, and I already tried to follow the the troubleshoot table with the technician who worked on the bike, but let me tell you, that from my point of view this troubleshoot wasn't that accurate according to my lack of experience, and lack of specialized qualification for the technician.



I would like to tell you that the first thing we found out when we checked the bike was a broken gear pin, so we got a replica for this pin, a really good one, since it's very difficult here to find a proper spare parts supply, and we installed it, the replica worked well, but the error remained as it is! that was before we were advised to change the gear shifting motor and the RPM sensor, which as I already mentioned, didn't solve the problem either.



Thank you again, and I'm ready to answer any questions, that may help describe the whole issue and guide us all to reach a proper solution for this problem.

 

[lootzyan]

I will be gone for a few hours. Since I can see that the letters DS are displayed, it may mean an error in the calibration of the clutch. So try CLUTCH INITIALIZE LEARNING as described in section 12 of the service manual.

 

[lootzyan]

I asked if there were any "major repairs". You deny that there was nothing like that, but right after that you write that the shifter pin was broken. I rather consider such a replacement to be quite a serious repair.
And then: "we were advised to change the gear shifting motor and the RPM sensor".
I don't think the shifting motor needed to be replaced. And you didn't change the "RPM sensor", but the Angle Sensor which appears in the Service Manual as TR Sensor (Transmission Range Sensor). I think that this sensor also did not require replacement but it is possible that the signal about the shift drum position is incorrectly sent to the PCM.
Rhetorical question: during shift pin replacement, were shift motor's reduction gears installed properly and are not damaged?

 

[Lonesome Rider]

hello lootzyan, thank you for caring, let me explain to you the sequence of what happened from the beginning, actually there wear no major repair before this incident of gear transmission error, what happened that when this error occurred, we started to check what happened, the first thing we found was the broken shift pin, we replaced it and we thought it will solve the problem, which hasn't, so we started to look on the internet searching for what we should do, then we thought according to what we read about such problem and also what we ware advised by several local technicians in the field that it would be the gear shift motor or/and the TR Sensor (Transmission Range Sensor) which I mistakenly called "RPM sensor".. Sorry, I'm not that professional or enough qualified, so I may be mistaken about some of the names or expressions, when it comes to electrical or mechanical issues.
However, I immediately sent for both and actually got them from "Partzilla" in the states as well.. And that was the second major repair trial happened.. and also as I mentioned that didn't solve the problem.
It's also important to inform you that during all this process my mechanic started to look and check over several mechanical parts and make sure that there is nothing wrong with it, as he explained, I think that the clutch group and and it's components, also the small bumps responsible for oil supply and the Gear drum are all also in good condition.
PS: I have some photos for that if you would like to see it, jest let me know and I'll share them
also throughout this repair trial process.
It worth to be mentioned that during the process of trying to repair, we put the bike on several fault detection devices, and none of them identified a specific malfunction, but let me say that none of these devices available in the private repair workshops here have what I consider a specialized device for the model of the bike specifically, but I think it is general and non-specialized error detection devices.

 

[lootzyan]

I don't have too many tricks in my sleeve either. But I'll repeat the previous questions again.
Have you tried reading the DTC from shift indicator "-" blink pattern? Is it possible?
Have you tried to perform the CLUTCH INITIALIZE LEARNING procedure SM §12?
Additionally, can you check DTC 27 & 51 according to Service Manual §12?
Check the correct operation of DCT Shift Control Motor / Reduction Gear §12?
Next up - shift drum malfunction, PCM malfunction.

 

[Lonesome Rider]

Well, thank you, I will follow these procedures and update with developments and results.
And kindly allow me to refer back to you for further questions and queries.

 

[seabeegt]

Lonesome Rider, I feel your pain… my ‘12 700xd is doing pretty much the same thing. I replaced my Shift motor and the bike shifts, but only to second gear. I’m gonna open up my right side and see if my shift pin is broken as well.

 

[Lonesome Rider]

Lonesome Rider, I feel your pain… my ‘12 700xd is doing pretty much the same thing. I replaced my Shift motor and the bike shifts, but only to second gear. I’m gonna open up my right side and see if my shift pin is broken as well.

Hello seabeegt,
Sorry for late answer..
Believe me this problem caused me significant trouble in my life, and until now I didn't solve the problem! or even diagnosed the cause of it! This is causing me a great headache, and let me tell you that maybe even if you find the pin is broken, this may not solve the problem as well, unfortunately, I'm sorry to tell you, that's exactly what happened with me, everything we checked on the right side is OK and as new and shiny as gold!!
You know.. my problem is I don't have a Honda's specialist workshop or dealer here in my city of residence, that's why why I use an ordinary or general mechanical workshop that don't have the Honda diagnostic gadget, which if used, at least will eliminate many of possible errors, or at least will guide us to the potential area of damage..
My advice to you is that if you have Honda's dealer in your city visit them and ask them to check the Bike by Honda's checking gadget "HDS pocket tester", if not, just try to follow the troubleshooting procedure in service manual page 12-11, if you have it, which I know is a little bit difficult and complicated to follow.. but.. "c'est la vie"
That's what I am intending to do the next few days if I have the time, since because of my "traffic jammed City", I was parking my car and using my bike as main transportation means, which has become impossible since the bike entered this "malfunction dilemma"!
I wish you luck, and please be free to ask me whatever you want along the way of problem tracking, and let me know if you find something or perhaps a solution, because this may help me as well, and thank you in advance.

 

[seabeegt]

Lonesome Rider,
Yeah man… I broke open my right side the other day and what do ya know… the dang shift pin is solid. Very frustrating. Especially when considering how that right-side cover is extremely tricky to handle when taking off. I ended up hanging it in midair instead of disconnecting the valve body sensor. Also, I took off the clutch basket so I could get to thrift drum where the shift pin lies within. That was a bastard to put back in. After I put everything back in on the right-side I went over to the left and went back behind the shift motor and took a look at the reduction gear assembly. I was looking for a broken gear or something like that. Took that plate off and didn’t find anything out of order. So I buttoned it back up and filled it with oil. Tried to fire it up and now it’ll turn over, but won’t fire up. I’m fed up with this damn bike. I ended up switching out the battery and that ain’t it. I figure i messed up a sensor or something. I’m seriously looking at getting a different bike. I need something simpler. The DCT is nice when it’s working, but man o’ man is it a pain when it ain’t.

 

[Lonesome Rider]

Lonesome Rider,
Yeah man… I broke open my right side the other day and what do ya know… the dang shift pin is solid. Very frustrating. Especially when considering how that right-side cover is extremely tricky to handle when taking off. I ended up hanging it in midair instead of disconnecting the valve body sensor. Also, I took off the clutch basket so I could get to thrift drum where the shift pin lies within. That was a bastard to put back in. After I put everything back in on the right-side I went over to the left and went back behind the shift motor and took a look at the reduction gear assembly. I was looking for a broken gear or something like that. Took that plate off and didn’t find anything out of order. So I buttoned it back up and filled it with oil. Tried to fire it up and now it’ll turn over, but won’t fire up. I’m fed up with this damn bike. I ended up switching out the battery and that ain’t it. I figure i messed up a sensor or something. I’m seriously looking at getting a different bike. I need something simpler. The DCT is nice when it’s working, but man o’ man is it a pain when it ain’t.

Seabeegt,
let me tell you that I did everything you did maybe even in the order you did it.. believe it or not, as you mentioned everything was 100% in order, and nothing wrong, that's why I told you that I'm aiming to find proper time to get to the main Honda workshop seeking checking out this error using the diagnostic gadget! Maybe it could lead us to the fault!!

 

[Lonesome Rider]

Seabeegt,
How are you, I hope everything is fine with you,
any new updates regarding your NC 700 gear shifting problem?
Regarding what is going on with me here, and to sum up many of the details, I reached out to one of the maintenance centers that has a specialized malfunction detection device for my model of bike. The malfunction detection device revealed that the malfunction is 54-1 external mean shaft/counter-shaft speed which is 37700-MGS-D31 SENSOR ASSY., SPEED, there are three of them actually, and now we are searching for them in the market here, wishing to find them, otherwise we'll be forced to buy them from abroad, like partzilla US or something and wait until arrival an see the result..
Lonesome Rider,
Yeah man… I broke open my right side the other day and what do ya know… the dang shift pin is solid. Very frustrating. Especially when considering how that right-side cover is extremely tricky to handle when taking off. I ended up hanging it in midair instead of disconnecting the valve body sensor. Also, I took off the clutch basket so I could get to thrift drum where the shift pin lies within. That was a bastard to put back in. After I put everything back in on the right-side I went over to the left and went back behind the shift motor and took a look at the reduction gear assembly. I was looking for a broken gear or something like that. Took that plate off and didn’t find anything out of order. So I buttoned it back up and filled it with oil. Tried to fire it up and now it’ll turn over, but won’t fire up. I’m fed up with this damn bike. I ended up switching out the battery and that ain’t it. I figure i messed up a sensor or something. I’m seriously looking at getting a different bike. I need something simpler. The DCT is nice when it’s working, but man o’ man is it a pain when it ain’t.

 

[Lonesome Rider]

To all..
How are you, I hope everything is fine with you,
please feel free to give your opinion and help thank you in advance
Regarding what is going on with me here, and to sum up many of the details, I reached out to one of the maintenance centers that has a specialized malfunction detection device for my model of bike. The malfunction detection device revealed that the malfunction is 54-1 external mean shaft/counter-shaft speed which is 37700-MGS-D31 SENSOR ASSY., SPEED, there are three of them actually, and now we are searching for them in the market here, wishing to find them, otherwise we'll be forced to buy them from abroad, like partzilla US or something and wait until arrival an see the result..

 

[lootzyan]

...The malfunction detection device revealed that the malfunction is 54-1 external mean shaft/counter-shaft speed ...

It seems to me that a similar problem recently happened to the "wolfswater" that he described in this post. DTC 54 - "Outer mainshaft sensor speed low".
https://www.nc700-forum.com/threads/bank-sensor.24006/
I would recommend that before you order a new sensor, check the electrical connections and voltages on the connector according to the recommendations of the Service Manual. I believe that there is a higher probability of a faulty connection than damage to the sensor. I also recommend removing the sensor and cleaning it. The Service Manual mentions "Electromagnetic interference" as a possible cause of the fault. This could happen if, for example, tiny metal particles stuck to the sensor and changed the current induced in the sensor (changed air gap).

 

[Lonesome Rider]

It seems to me that a similar problem recently happened to the "wolfswater" that he described in this post. DTC 54 - "Outer mainshaft sensor speed low".
https://www.nc700-forum.com/threads/bank-sensor.24006/
I would recommend that before you order a new sensor, check the electrical connections and voltages on the connector according to the recommendations of the Service Manual. I believe that there is a higher probability of a faulty connection than damage to the sensor. I also recommend removing the sensor and cleaning it. The Service Manual mentions "Electromagnetic interference" as a possible cause of the fault. This could happen if, for example, tiny metal particles stuck to the sensor and changed the current induced in the sensor (changed air gap).

Thank you Lootzyan for your help and support, I told my Mechanic your opinion and he replied that he almost did the same and the bike went normal for almost an hour and a half then it became malfunction again.. so he suggests that this is a bad sensor which is functioning sometime and then malfunction again.
And in this case we're supposed to find one of these three which is the same part number here in Egypt.. which is so difficult I believe.. in the other hand we should order it from the States, which at least needs a bit of time to arrive here, so now we are stuck in this position of the Dilemma, which almost happens every time or step since we started troubleshooting this problem.
I hope this will be the last station or the last stage..
But I have a question for you, and I think it's a serious one, depending on your Technical expertise which is obvious do you think that changing my tire size has something to do with this problem? because in fact I has 180 instead of 160 which is the stock size for the rare tire..