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Andreani Cartidge Fork Kit

No update from me as the mods haven't been completed yet. Currently the Andreanis and the Wilbers shock are in the Tech's workshop awaiting my visit. Xmas will intervene so I will get it all sorted in January.

Ohlins are excellent units. I once put one on my Varadero and it transformed that bike.
 
I have the Andreanis installed. They were done by the Wilbers tech and also purchased thru him. Today I took the bike for a 150Km spin, initially over smooth roads and then onto the rougher roads that I frequent. To be honest I was disappointed. There is a small improvement in the performance of the forks over washboard surfaces at speed but there is still the same jolt through them when hitting a sharp bump on the road. Spring Preload and Compression damping were backed off completely and the forks still felt too hard. I had applied a small amount of rebound damping. My impression is that the oil used might have been too heavy. At the moment the performance of these items does not reflect the amount of the purchase outlay.

I have contacted the Tech by email and await a response from him. I will then assess what happens next, but I may have to dismount the forks and send them back to him for a possible oil change or internal adjustment if possible to the compression stack.
 
That's something I noticed in a few reviews for the kits on other bike forums. A few found that using lighter weight oil in one of the forks helped tremendously. I will see if I can find a link to the thread. I want to say it was an FZ09 forum.

I decided to go with Cogent front and back, because I wanted something with lots of technical support in the US. Should get my stuff in 2 weeks.
 
I hope you get it sorted and that it is minor in nature. The NC with suspension upgrades is a real plaything in the curves. I remember the first few times after my suspension work I'd see a bump coming halfway around a corner and I'd get all tensed up waiting to see how my line would be affected. Now it just rails around corners, bumps and all.
 
That's something I noticed in a few reviews for the kits on other bike forums. A few found that using lighter weight oil in one of the forks helped tremendously. I will see if I can find a link to the thread. I want to say it was an FZ09 forum.

I decided to go with Cogent front and back, because I wanted something with lots of technical support in the US. Should get my stuff in 2 weeks.

I will keep that in mind. Obviously the oil changed was in the Compression damping leg. Thanks for that. I await hearing from the tech this morning.
 
I hope you get it sorted and that it is minor in nature. The NC with suspension upgrades is a real plaything in the curves. I remember the first few times after my suspension work I'd see a bump coming halfway around a corner and I'd get all tensed up waiting to see how my line would be affected. Now it just rails around corners, bumps and all.

I was so looking forward to that, so you can imagine my disappointment yesterday. I would have gone with an emulator but opted instead for the easy adjustability of the Andreani. I have no doubt the fix will be simple. I await hearing from the tech and will progress it from there.
 
Dduelin, what did you do with your suspension?
I installed Cogent DDC cartridge emulators in the forks and CB1100 fork caps (adjustable for preload) and Cogent's Moab shock for the NC700X.

There are some suspension threads in Mods sub forum. I found these by using the forum advanced search - keyword Cogent.

http://nc700-forum.com/forum/nc700-...pension-upgrade-today-3.html?highlight=cogent

http://nc700-forum.com/forum/garage...ynamic-ddc-fork-upgrade.html?highlight=cogent

http://nc700-forum.com/forum/nc700-...uspension-ohlins-penske.html?highlight=cogent
 
Bummer that there was no joy straight away with the new gubbins, Griff :(

I too, suspect there could be a big change in using a thinner fork oil. At least that's a relatively cheap and easy thing to try anyway. I am still very happy with my Ricor bits, and one of the things I strove to make sure of, was to get one of the thinnest easily sourced fluids, Maxima 5 weight 85/150. Ricor advised using Amsoil shock therapy 5 weight, but it was impossible for me to get up here, and would have cost an insanely insulting amount, sent from the 'States.
 
Bummer that there was no joy straight away with the new gubbins, Griff :(

I too, suspect there could be a big change in using a thinner fork oil. At least that's a relatively cheap and easy thing to try anyway. I am still very happy with my Ricor bits, and one of the things I strove to make sure of, was to get one of the thinnest easily sourced fluids, Maxima 5 weight 85/150. Ricor advised using Amsoil shock therapy 5 weight, but it was impossible for me to get up here, and would have cost an insanely insulting amount, sent from the 'States.

Bummer is the correct term :(

There is a problem with these cartridges and the folks on the Yamaha FZ09 forum are on top of it from their point of view. Seems lighter fork oil will help but the design of the compression damping adjustment needle is also a factor. A member of the UK forum used the Andreani units on his NC750 and had no issues at all. However I think that the 750 forks are slightly different and that was my impression when I rode one. As such the related cartridges might also be different. The tech who sold these units to me is reverting to Andreani and will get back to me. He was not exactly proactive until I called him this afternoon. He also wanted me to fit the shock on the basis that it would "compliment" the forks. Read that as help to "hide" the fork issue. I had already decided not to fit the shock for that very reason. He will also investigate if it is possible to adjust the internals of the cartridges. I await further word.
 
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Sadly these cartridges are not working out. I am currently in direct contact with Andreani with regard to them, but I do not hold out much hope of satisfaction. The biggest problem is that since fitting, the front end is too hard. Lighter oil and slightly softer springs have been fitted and they still are not right. There is also the issue of less suspension travel. Andreani are adamant that Honda's figures for travel on the NCX are wrong. However my visual of the travel available is not lying. It was immediately obvious to me that I had less travel when I first compressed the forks. I will keep y'all posted
 
Final posting from me on this subject. I have heard nothing further from Andreani. This is not too dissimilar to the experiences of a couple of others who had issues on the FZ09, ER6 and Triumph twin forums as far as I can see. In short, as far as Andreani are concerned their product is beyond reproach and part of their response to me was that they have not had any previous problems. The WWW is in direct contradiction of that statement, and we have all heard that response at some time or other in the motorcycle industry.

I am now going to live with these items for as long as they continue to function in the limited manner in which they do. To summarise, they have made no improvement whatsoever over the standard forks with regard to the application for which I purchased them. They may work for folks on smooth roads or racetracks, but on the back roads of Ireland they are a waste of the money that I spent on them. Fortunately the Wilbers 641 that I fitted to the rear end is functioning perfectly, as one is also doing on my Triumph. That is a superb product and well worth the money imho.
 
I'll try and keep it short being that I'm not at all happy with the suspension on my 2014 NC700X. I haven't looked into it yet but does honda offer an upgrade or would it just be foolish to spend the kind of money the dealership would ask. Obviously looking for an upgrade and currently thinking of the Race Tech and Ohlins set up. But really just starting my search. Any advice on what those have done and likes -dislikes would be great. I live in a State the doesn't like to pay for road maintenance and with Pot Holes that come in the size of The Snake River Canyon I need to go to work on this fast. Thanks Team NC
 
My episode is not over yet as Andreani are sending softer springs after I persisted with them. I have a wilbers shock on the back and I am still trying to get a good setting on it. I suspect the shock spring might be a little on the strong side but not sure on that yet. Honda do not offer an upgrade to the suspension in any way.

My best advice, get a good aftermarket shock and try something like Racetech or Cogent emulators in the forks. They have worked well for folks on here and are not expensive by comparison to the Andreanis.
 
Update.



Back in march, Andreani agreed to talk with the Tech who fitted my cartridges in an effort to find a solution to my issues. My main issues were stiction and the tendency to bounce over sharp objects. I also believe I have lost some travel with the cartridges, but for now I cannot prove that beyond doubt. Andreani continue to insist that the Tech should not change the compression shim stack on the relevant cartridge. Instead they agreed to send him a softer set of springs. N8.8 instead of N9.3. That again is a small reduction but they feel it should make a difference.



Around that time at the beginning of March, I put the bike away as I was not enjoying riding it in its current state. Last week I decided to take it out again for a short spin after it had been lying up for around three weeks. Immediately I noticed a difference. The forks were more supple and there was less stiction. The bounce over sharp objects was still there but not quite as severe. I pondered why as nothing had been changed other than it had been lying up. The short spin got lengthened. What is sure is that the roadholding is better with the current set up regardless of comfort. Yes indeed, things had improved somewhat but I did not know why



That same day the Tech rang me to say that the new springs had arrived. I discussed the perceived improvement with him. He too was baffled until I mentioned that the bike had been taken out on one of the few warm days this spring. Aha ! All my previous rides had been at around 4C whereas that days ride had been at 11C. The rise in temperature was the only difference since my previous ride. This is the only viable explanation as there is nothing else to explain it.



My conclusion is that these cartridges are very sensitive to oil viscosity and ambient temperature. The waters were also probably muddied by the fact that new dust and oil seals were used in the rebuild simultaneously. The fact that I ride very rough roads combined with a possible loss of some fork travel with the cartridges also is probably a factor. It is also highly likely that the settings originally tested by the factory on the cartridges in Italy, were done in temperatures well above the average here in Ireland.



I eventually suggested to the Tech that in view of the improvement, I wanted to ride the bike through to the end of June to see how things pan out. If matters improve some more with the warmer weather and some further loosening of seals and the cartridges, I will leave them as they are. If not, then we will try the softer springs. For now though, matters have improved sufficiently to allow me enjoy my NC again. Together with the Wilbers shock and the PR4's, the overall mods have left me with a bike that has excellent roadholding and handling. It is not as comfortable as I had hoped to achieve, but it is a blast to ride on backroads in all conditions. I am accordingly significantly happier than when I first started out.



One other adjustment made was to raise the forks about 7mm in the triple clamps.
 
To me that sounds like the shim stack they have in the cartridge kit is too stiff (or thick, rather) for your conditions. In average lower temperatures, no matter what viscosity oil you are using, it isn't able to flow through free enough and thus, is too stiff. Yes, right now it's better because of the warmer temperatures, but I would consider two things:

1) Find a fork oil that when *cold*, has a lower viscosity rating. Remember, all fork oils are not the same. One brand in 5w could be heavier than ANOTHER brands in 10w. So read the spec-sheet and go with it's cold weight.

2) IF the problem arises again in the future, request Adreani send you a "softer" shim stack and have the tech install that in the cartridge.

3) Ride the piss out of it right now while it's working!!! <---- Most important!
 
To me that sounds like the shim stack they have in the cartridge kit is too stiff (or thick, rather) for your conditions. In average lower temperatures, no matter what viscosity oil you are using, it isn't able to flow through free enough and thus, is too stiff. Yes, right now it's better because of the warmer temperatures, but I would consider two things:

1) Find a fork oil that when *cold*, has a lower viscosity rating. Remember, all fork oils are not the same. One brand in 5w could be heavier than ANOTHER brands in 10w. So read the spec-sheet and go with it's cold weight.

2) IF the problem arises again in the future, request Adreani send you a "softer" shim stack and have the tech install that in the cartridge.

3) Ride the piss out of it right now while it's working!!! <---- Most important!

All good advice and thanks for that. You are more or less thinking along the same lines as I am. I will review in June and if this is still problematic I will then get the tech to alter the shim stack. I may also get him to revert to the original Ohlins oil. When that did not work at first he replaced it with another brand of 2.5W that he had previously used to good affect. The softer springs are also there to be used if necessary.

However I think the loss of a slight amount of travel is also a factor here and there is nothing that can be done about that.

I was out on it yesterday and apart from a bid of bouncing over a couple of patches of really rough ground I had a ball on it, as the Wilbers is now also a factor. I will be off out on it again today. The forks are gradually loosening out though and that is encouraging.
 
sorry to necro-thread but I think it warrants further clarification
Andreani continue to insist that the Tech should not change the compression shim stack on the relevant cartridge. Instead they agreed to send him a softer set of springs. N8.8 instead of N9.3. That again is a small reduction but they feel it should make a difference.
Changing springs is usually a waste of time when the culprit is valving. I can't speak for the factory's insistence but they really have no business taking that stance. The valving is simply not workable on normal roads. On smooth European race tracks it probably does fine.

The piston orifice bias is not reversed. They are just re-using a rebound piston and asking it to handle 1.5x more volume of oil even before we consider that the rate of displacement in the compression stroke is WILDLY higher than in rebound. We're talking 150-250+ inch/sec vs somewhere in 30-50 range. Even napkin math with a dull crayon says it'll never work.

For a given bump-induced input, a weaker spring will necessarily try to compress faster and thus put more strain on the oil flow characteristics of the piston and valving. So a weaker spring can actually makes things feel worse.

with the current set up regardless of comfort. Yes indeed, things had improved somewhat but I did not know why
...
All my previous rides had been at around 4C whereas that days ride had been at 11C.

The default oil is ohlins R&T43 which is a 19cSt@40 oil. I think that's too thick on principal but usable on the Reb leg. But the comp leg (if running OE valving) needs to be at 10 or less to have any chance. 40F vs 50F doesn't sound like much but it's possible you found an inflection point in the Ohlins oil. If you run around a lot at much less than 70F/20C then you should run a lighter oil anyway.

The fact that I ride very rough roads combined with a possible loss of some fork travel with the cartridges

There is absolutely no cause for losing travel. All they use are some Delrin spacers which you can resize trivially (I use a lathe) or re-stack till you get the travel numbers you want.

Much to Andreani chagrin EVERY SINGLE kit that has gone thru me has come back for my modifications if they weren't requested to be done originally. I also field requests for the mods for completely unrelated bikes and from all corners of the globe. The reason? Harshness over bumps. I'd like to think it was also my very frank feedback to the factory that got them to rethink some things at the structural and finish level, but alas they have yet to admit to or address the valving.

To be fair the kit is very clearly marked 'for race use only' and championships are being won with the unmolested (?) kit by racers across the spectrum (R3, R6, EX650 etc). Yes, I've reworked a couple of race bikes too - guys from the midwest.

The quick run-down of the mod package is:
1) add a complete base valve to the 'Reb' leg mostly to tune stability under braking and make up some for #2; thereby converting a 2-piston setup into a 3. (FWIW the same config Matris uses on their F12S on some machines)

2) replace 'Comp' piston with my own and a high-bypass 2-stage shim stack.

3) re-contour the 'Comp' needle for better range.
 
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