Changing brake lines on ABS 2018

[hoyden]

Looking to fit braided lines to 2018 NC750X ABS.
Have only found sources for NC700, Yamaha and Harley.
Some say you can do it yourself by bleeding the system once with the engine off, then running the engine and operating the ABS, and bleeding once more.
Others say don't touch it as dealers have software/machinery that bleeds the ABS correctly.
Has anyone any experience or knowledge of this? Nothing in the service manual that I have so assumed it was dealer related. Cheers and happy riding.

 

[showkey]

There’s is no special software or scan tool required to bleed brakes for maintenance or when parts are replaced.

Most will use a vacuum to bleed the system. Hand power or air powered are the most common.
The pump the brake levers method is the most tedious and might take two people.
Depending on the model there might be a specific sequence or order in which each caliper is bled.

The HONDA service manual provides the process in detail.

On the merits of braided lines…….it’s been discussed and rashed and rehashed on this forum and others.
Depending on your riding style, experience, track days and skills ………….If your expecting a night and day difference in braking performance with braided line “upgrade” you might be disappointed.

 

[hoyden]

There’s is no special software or scan tool required to bleed brakes for maintenance or when parts are replaced.

Most will use a vacuum to bleed the system. Hand power or air powered are the most common.
The pump the brake levers method is the most tedious and might take two people.
Depending on the model there might be a specific sequence or order in which each caliper is bled.

The HONDA service manual provides the process in detail.

On the merits of braided lines…….it’s been discussed and rashed and rehashed on this forum and others.
Depending on your riding style, experience, track days and skills ………….If your expecting a night and day difference in braking performance with braided line “upgrade” you might be disappointed.

Cheers, lines have to be replaced so plumbing for braided for longevity more than anything. Will try and find the Honda manual.

 

[TacomaJD]

Curios why the desire to swap to braided lines?

 

[hoyden]

Brake lines deteriorate over time and with high mileage (the latter applying). A number of manufacturers (e.g. Yamaha) now recommend changing the lines as early as four years (fluid every two). A report (see FortNine on YT) stated failures as a contribution to fatalities.
My bike puts up with a lot and assuming it's not retired due to circumstances beyond my control, it's going through a tlc overhaul so braided are fit and forget.

 

[showkey]

Brake lines deteriorate over time and with high mileage (the latter applying). A number of manufacturers (e.g. Yamaha) now recommend changing the lines as early as four years (fluid every two). A report (see FortNine on YT) stated failures as a contribution to fatalities.
My bike puts up with a lot and assuming it's not retired due to circumstances beyond my control, it's going through a tlc overhaul so braided are fit and forget.

Honda recommends brake fluid change/flush at 2 years or 12,000 miles for most of the models.
There is no mention of line or rubber hose service or interval other than visual inspection.

Brake fluid change is likely one to the top maintenance items that is ignored. Reason it can be complex and tedious. Might be past the DIY skill level for many. Dealer brake service can be expensive. Doing wrong the the bike is not rideable. Brake fluid will absorb water, cause corrosion and sludge in the system. That sludge or debris can block the master cylinder ports.

Four year service interval on brake lines is excessive and failure to replace the lines is contributing to fatalities is just over dramatic internet nonsense. The rubber lines on cars and trucks are the same spec as the motorcycles.
The common vehicle brake line and hoses on a US vehicle ( of all kinds) would be 15-20 years or 100-250k in mileage.

 

[halfSpinDoctor]

You can always bleed and replace brake fluid on systems with ABS, but without the special tool the fluid in the ABS unit will not be changed out.

This should be fine if you regularly change your brake fluid, but might be a problem if it has been neglected for a long time and you want to ensure a full exchange of the fluid. Vacuum or hand-pumping should work equally well. However, with ABS, DON'T reverse bleed the brakes (force fluid in and up through the lower bleeder), as this presents a risk of pushing debris into the tiny passages in the ABS modulator.

I don't know why people think the pumping method is so hard on a bike -- I can easily reach up to the lever while holding a box end wrench in my right hand. However I'm tall with long arms so maybe that is the difference.

 

[hoyden]

You can always bleed and replace brake fluid on systems with ABS, but without the special tool the fluid in the ABS unit will not be changed out.

This should be fine if you regularly change your brake fluid, but might be a problem if it has been neglected for a long time and you want to ensure a full exchange of the fluid. Vacuum or hand-pumping should work equally well. However, with ABS, DON'T reverse bleed the brakes (force fluid in and up through the lower bleeder), as this presents a risk of pushing debris into the tiny passages in the ABS modulator.

I don't know why people think the pumping method is so hard on a bike -- I can easily reach up to the lever while holding a box end wrench in my right hand. However I'm tall with long arms so maybe that is the difference.

halfSpinDoctor, many thanks - was the kind of information I was looking for. Cheers!

 

[lootzyan]

Looking to fit braided lines to 2018 NC750X ABS.
Have only found sources for NC700, Yamaha and Harley...

Replacing the original good quality brake hoses with some braided hoses? Not worth the effort.
You won't get any noticeable improvement. In addition, you will have to find the appropriate adapters for proper installation, ensuring a good tightness of the system under pressure.
In your case, there are only 3 relatively short brake hoses, so any pressure drop is undetectable.

 

[hoyden]

Seems the ol' braided hose is not to fondly thought of on the forum
Ah, going to fit them anyway because I like the colour. Apologies if anyone loses sleep

 

[lootzyan]

Seems the ol' braided hose is not to fondly thought of on the forum...

I don't mind using braided hoses as long as it's practical.
I have been using a braided hose in the direct connection of the master cylinder to the ABS module for almost 10 years. It was the best solution for me due to the wide selection of brake hose lengths.

 

[showkey]

You can always bleed and replace brake fluid on systems with ABS, but without the special tool the fluid in the ABS unit will not be changed out.

That is not true……..the brake fluid in the ABS unit is flushed with a conventional bleed. There maybe an ounce or less that is not moved. That small amount will move or circulate with the key pump run, solenoids cycle, pressure build and self check. If you were really overly concerned you could bleed the system again after that self check pump run. ……but……is not a concern.

 

[halfSpinDoctor]

Seems the ol' braided hose is not to fondly thought of on the forum
Ah, going to fit them anyway because I like the colour. Apologies if anyone loses sleep

I also installed them, and I love them. A lot of people feel that the rubber hoses are life-of-vehicle, and that's totally fine, however I was taught that rubber ones are life-limited parts that need replacement, whereas stainless braided hoses are not, so I decided to replace them and be done with it forever.

That is not true……..the brake fluid in the ABS unit is flushed with a conventional bleed. There maybe an ounce or less that is not moved. That small amount will move or circulate with the key pump run, solenoids cycle, pressure build and self check. If you were really overly concerned you could bleed the system again after that self check pump run. ……but……is not a concern.

Thanks for the clarification. I definitely agree this is not a concern, and yes you are right that the volume not moved through (without actuating the ABS unit) is going to be very tiny. The clarification is helpful. I should have said that some of the fluid in the ABS will not move without the tool to run the ABS modulator.

My point is that doing anything special to modulate the ABS (like two fluid changes in a row, or buying a manufacturer tool, if avablile) is not really worth it, unless there is air trapped in that part of the system that needs to be bled!

 

[670cc]

I also installed them, and I love them. A lot of people feel that the rubber hoses are life-of-vehicle, and that's totally fine, however I was taught that rubber ones are life-limited parts that need replacement, whereas stainless braided hoses are not, so I decided to replace them and be done with it forever.

Do the braided lines have rubber inside? The braid alone couldn’t contain the brake fluid. Seems it could deteriorate all the same.

My Zero’s J.Juan brakes came standard with braided lines. Seems they are stiffer and more difficult to work with when adjustments were made to the handlebars.

 

[lootzyan]

I will not try to measure the total length of the brake lines in NC/ABS but from my assessment less than 10% are made of a rubber-like material. Most are alloy steel tubes.
If someone wishes to replace good quality brake hoses with good looking ones, this is a private preference. It certainly won't improve braking performance or longevity.
The quality of the materials used in the last 25 years in the automotive/motorcycle industry means that the outdated recommendations should already be modified.
For 22 years in my car (Nissan) there has never been a need to replace the brake lines or parts from the system except for the pads, discs and drums, and the standard fluid has only been changed once. And of course the braking system of a medium car is much more complicated than the most modern NC7xx.
There is no reason to believe that Honda uses inferior quality materials for its motorcycles compared to the quality used in cars.

 

[halfSpinDoctor]

Do the braided lines have rubber inside? The braid alone couldn’t contain the brake fluid. Seems it could deteriorate all the same.

You are correct, braided stainless is not fluid-tight . The inner tube is made from PTFE (Teflon). They probably do have a lifetime (everything does), but it is on the order of 20-25 years hence "life of vehicle".

 

[670cc]

You are correct, braided stainless is not fluid-tight . The inner tube is made from PTFE (Teflon). They probably do have a lifetime (everything does), but it is on the order of 20-25 years hence "life of vehicle".

This thread made me realize that my Goldwing is 20 years old and has the original stock Honda brake and clutch hoses on it. On visual inspection, they seem to be in good condition. I’m not planning on changing them anytime soon.

 

[halfSpinDoctor]

I think you are fine! I do these things because I like to tinker. As lootzyan pointed out, many of us drive 20+ year old cars with the original rubber hoses and how often do you hear of brake failures? However, most cars have two independent brake systems (usually upper-left/lower-right and upper-right/lower-left) in the event one loses pressure. Bikes don't have that kind of redundancy. (At speeds anything above 5-10 mph, you basically rely 100% on the front brake working to be able to stop).

 

[showkey]

This thread made me realize that my Goldwing is 20 years old and has the original stock Honda brake and clutch hoses on it. On visual inspection, they seem to be in good condition. I’m not planning on changing them anytime soon.

Same on two 1982 Cx500T and 1983 Goldwing ………….40 and 39 years old respectively.

 

[hoyden]

I also installed them, and I love them. A lot of people feel that the rubber hoses are life-of-vehicle, and that's totally fine, however I was taught that rubber ones are life-limited parts that need replacement, whereas stainless braided hoses are not, so I decided to replace them and be done with it forever.


Thanks for the clarification. I definitely agree this is not a concern, and yes you are right that the volume not moved through (without actuating the ABS unit) is going to be very tiny. The clarification is helpful. I should have said that some of the fluid in the ABS will not move without the tool to run the ABS modulator.

My point is that doing anything special to modulate the ABS (like two fluid changes in a row, or buying a manufacturer tool, if avablile) is not really worth it, unless there is air trapped in that part of the system that needs to be bled!

Haven't been monitoring the thread but a lot more useful information, thanks. Still haven't got around to the job yet though.
To clarify, it sounds like you changed the lines yourself, was it something you would do yourself again or was it something you found to be a pain once started?
Do my own servicing (valve timing, coolant change, etc.), exhaust respraying, fitting of accessories - but wouldn't strip an engine for example. So weighing it up.