DCT sluggish clutch after a lie up of a few weeks.

[Deleted member 1183]

I started up my X-Adv today after a lie up of more than a month. I clicked it into gear and started to open the throttle gently. Nothing happened initially and that had me thinking that I hadn't put in in gear. However I checked and indeed it was in first. Then I gave it a few more revs and it started to pick up and off I went. Initially I felt it went up through the gears a bit faster than it normally does but after a few miles it seemed to settle into its usual pattern and thereafter all was well.

Anyone else with DCT ever notice anything like this ?

PS On this bike the clutch pickup when cold has always been a little later than when fully up to temperature.

 

[Deleted member 1183]

On further reflection I suppose it is time to do a DCT reset as I haven't done one for a while. I will shortly do an oil change and if the slow cold clutch is still evident then I will do a reset after that.

 

[the Ferret]

Mine acts like that on first start up in the morning, always has. I have never done a DCT reset on mine. 28,000 miles.

 

[lootzyan]

This is a hydraulic engaged clutch. From the description, it can be concluded that it is an oil problem. Is the oil within specification? Rhetorical question. You should ask it yourself. For any other problems a DTC code should be displayed. The first thing I would do is replace the oil with a new genuine Honda one. A small loss. For peace of mind, to avoid such a question. If that doesn't help (which is likely) only a visit to the dealer can help.
(But expect to be asked if the battery is well charged - it's a good question for any occasion).

 

[Deleted member 1183]

This is a hydraulic engaged clutch. From the description, it can be concluded that it is an oil problem. Is the oil within specification? Rhetorical question. You should ask it yourself. For any other problems a DTC code should be displayed. The first thing I would do is replace the oil with a new genuine Honda one. A small loss. For peace of mind, to avoid such a question. If that doesn't help (which is likely) only a visit to the dealer can help.
(But expect to be asked if the battery is well charged - it's a good question for any occasion).

Oil is a 10/40 semi synthetic. Same one I have always used on the bike which now 48,000kms on the odometer. Battery fully charged and is always on a tender anyway because of a tracker draw. As the oil is due to be changed anyway then perhaps its viscosity has deteriorated. I will change the oil anyway and see what happens.

 

[lootzyan]

...perhaps its viscosity has deteriorated.

From your observation, the clutch works better at higher temperatures when the viscosity of the oil is lower.
You only specify the type of oil in general. I haven't tried different substitute oils, so I have no experience with that. I suggest using genuine Honda oil to be sure. This is the cheapest first step. If that doesn't help and you want to fix the problem, the next steps can be costly.

 

[INTHEWIND]

Oil is a 10/40 semi synthetic. Same one I have always used on the bike which now 48,000kms on the odometer. Battery fully charged and is always on a tender anyway because of a tracker draw. As the oil is due to be changed anyway then perhaps its viscosity has deteriorated. I will change the oil anyway and see what happens.

Honda recommends 10w30 for the DCT.
GN4.
Oil flow is crucial to the DCT.
6 speed model oil weight is less important.
Dont try to second guess the engineers.

 

[670cc]

Honda recommends 10w30 for the DCT.
GN4.
Oil flow is crucial to the DCT.
6 speed model oil weight is less important.
Dont try to second guess the engineers.

That “Honda recommends 10w30 for the DCT” is correct, but incomplete. Per early Honda service manuals for the NC DCT (2012, for example), 10W-40 is also listed as an acceptable viscosity, along with 10W-30. Honda did not specify any recommended oil differences between manual and DCT. Since the DCT design has not changed significantly over the years, one could assume that that 10W-40 recommendation is still valid, athough over the course of many years Honda has shifted their recommendations to 10W-30.

 

[Deleted member 1183]

All responses appreciated. I am not unduly alarmed as yet at this situation, and note that the Ferret has encountered similar. I also note that his bike has never had a reset. Mine has, but not for a very long time. I take the point about the 10/30 oil but as I have used nothing else other than the 10/40 over 48,000 kms I cannot initially hold the 10/40 responsible as yet.

Tomorrow I will do an oil change and will test the bike on one of the following days. If the issue is still relevant after the change then I will do a reset. If neither of those changes sort it, then I will have to look elsewhere. I will of course report back.

 

[lootzyan]

The difference between 10W-30 and 10W-40 of the same oil is almost insignificant when it comes to lubricating properties. But Honda wants to use traditional motorcycle oil for the hydraulic operation of the DCT clutch as well. One oil rules them all. In DCT you also have a clutch oil pump and a linear solenoid valve. Usually in such cases the lubrication properties of the oil are less important and the compression properties are more important.
That's not to say the oil is to blame. There are mechanical components that may need service.

 

[INTHEWIND]

That “Honda recommends 10w30 for the DCT” is correct, but incomplete. Per early Honda service manuals for the NC DCT (2012, for example), 10W-40 is also listed as an acceptable viscosity, along with 10W-30. Honda did not specify any recommended oil differences between manual and DCT. Since the DCT design has not changed significantly over the years, one could assume that that 10W-40 recommendation is still valid, athough over the course of many years Honda has shifted their recommendations to 10W-30.

Did not know that, Im sticking with current recommendations on my 2023.
Thanks.

 

[INTHEWIND]

All responses appreciated. I am not unduly alarmed as yet at this situation, and note that the Ferret has encountered similar. I also note that his bike has never had a reset. Mine has, but not for a very long time. I take the point about the 10/30 oil but as I have used nothing else other than the 10/40 over 48,000 kms I cannot initially hold the 10/40 responsible as yet.

Tomorrow I will do an oil change and will test the bike on one of the following days. If the issue is still relevant after the change then I will do a reset. If neither of those changes sort it, then I will have to look elsewhere. I will of course report back.

Thanks, one more question...How many miles on the present oil?

 

[dduelin]

Honda recommends 10w30 for the DCT.
GN4.
Oil flow is crucial to the DCT.
6 speed model oil weight is less important.
Dont try to second guess the engineers.

I agree in concept about "don't try and second guess the engineers" but by now we understand that early Honda NC manuals listed 10w30 and 10w40 as oils with acceptable viscosity. The transmission uses oil temperature and oil pressure sensors in a feedback loop to alter clutch take up in response to different oils that might used. If you care about such things I am attaching a document with lots of technical information about how this DCT deals with oils of different initial viscosities as well as how it copes with the viscosity changes as the oil changes properties over time and use. It's all interesting to me but I think Section 5 is most relevant to the thread.

 

[INTHEWIND]

I agree in concept about "don't try and second guess the engineers" but by now we understand that early Honda NC manuals listed 10w30 and 10w40 as oils with acceptable viscosity. The transmission uses oil temperature and oil pressure sensors in a feedback loop to alter clutch take up in response to different oils that might used. If you care about such things I am attaching a document with lots of technical information about how this DCT deals with oils of different initial viscosities as well as how it copes with the viscosity changes as the oil changes properties over time and use. It's all interesting to me but I think Section 5 is most relevant to the thread.

Thanks for the document.
They went with 10w30 across the Honda lineup in around 2007.
Its interesting Honda recommends the GN4 over the synthetic Honda oil too.

 

[INTHEWIND]

The difference between 10W-30 and 10W-40 of the same oil is almost insignificant when it comes to lubricating properties. But Honda wants to use traditional motorcycle oil for the hydraulic operation of the DCT clutch as well. One oil rules them all. In DCT you also have a clutch oil pump and a linear solenoid valve. Usually in such cases the lubrication properties of the oil are less important and the compression properties are more important.
That's not to say the oil is to blame. There are mechanical components that may need service.

View attachment 52011

These two motor oils are very similar to each other but shouldn’t be used as interchangeable.
The 10w40 will work the engine harder and the fuel mileage will be reduced compared to the 10w30.
JMHO

 

[dduelin]

Thanks for the document.
They went with 10w30 across the Honda lineup in around 2012.
Its interesting Honda recommends the GN4 over the synthetic Honda oil too.

Honda moved to 10w30 as the primary viscosity recommendation in liquid cooled street bikes starting with MY 2007. This change was the practical result of an extensive oil study commissioned by Honda and undertaken by Idemitsu. Idemitsu Lubricants is Honda’s oldest trading partner and found 10w30 gave the lowest oil temperatures in camshaft bearings and cylinder heads.

 

[670cc]

These two motor oils are very similar to each other but shouldn’t be used as interchangeable.
The 10w40 will work the engine harder and the fuel mileage will be reduced compared to the 10w30.
JMHO

I have used either 10W-30 or 10W-40 motorcycle oil back and forth in my NC over the 8 oil changes to date. I cannot tell any difference in how it runs with one or the other viscosity. I also have records of every fuel fill up and it’s gas mileage. I see no correlation between oil viscosity and gas mileage.

By all means, use whichever oil you like. I’m not encouraging use of one over the other. But for me, 30 or 40 works the same.

 

[potter0o]

*jaws music* oil thread...

 

[Deleted member 1183]

Thanks, one more question...How many miles on the present oil?

Almost 6000 kms.

 

[Deleted member 1183]

Ok. I have'nt changed oil yet and will do so later. However for the purpose of this discussion I decided to experiment. I wanted to pinpoint exactly the engagement point of the clutch when the bike is started from cold.

So I started the bike and it immediately fired up and remained at about a steady 15/1600 rpm as it always does. I am not normally given towards knocking it into gear at those revs but for the purpose of the experiment I gritted my teeth and did it. The engagement point while it is in its (15/1600) warmup revs is 2000rpm.

I then allowed the revs to drop to normal tickover of about 11/1200rpm and tried again. This time the clutch engagement point had also dropped to about 15/1600rpm. Accordingly the conclusion is that the engagement point when cold seems to be allowing for the fact that the engine revs are higher during warmup. I suppose that makes sense to me because otherwise the bike would take off during warm up if the engagement point was lower than 2000 rpm when drive engaged. I know one person who had such an issue with an S. Eventually a DCT reset alleviated that issue.

My normal procedure when cold is to let the bike freewheel down my sloped drive and engage D while it is rolling. That way there isn't as much of a thump engaging 1st gear. However the other day when I encountered the sluggish engagement I had used a different procedure and it was static when I engaged 1st.

One other aspect to consider is that there had also been a considerable increase in average ambient air temperature since I had last ridden the bike.

More later.......