First ride on "clutch-less" Yamaha FJR1300AE

[GoRovers]

I used to own a (manual transmission) Yamaha FJR1300A, but I've enjoyed my 2016 NC700X DCT for the past 5 years. A friend asked me if I'd like to ride his "clutch-less" FJR1300AE, and this video is the result.

 

[the Ferret]

Cool. I had a 2018 FJR. Miss everything but the weight. Stock heated grips, cruise control, electric windshield, shaft drive. Great bike. Sometimes I wonder if I made a mistake getting rid of it.

 

[GoRovers]

Cool. I had a 2018 FJR. Miss everything but the weight. Stock heated grips, cruise control, electric windshield, shaft drive. Great bike. Sometimes I wonder if I made a mistake getting rid of it.

I agree. My previous FJR1300A was one of my favorite bikes during the past 45 years. Painful left-hand arthritis prevented further clutch-pulling and forced me into the NC DCT world... which has been wonderful. The "clutch-less" FJR1300AE I test-rode in the video is great, but it still requires manual shifting, by foot-shifter or paddle-shifter. (I think I'll stick with the NC.)

 

[TheIronWarrior]

If I'm understanding the technology correctly, they basically took a normal motorcycle transmission and added a computer to operate the clutch and shift drum based on the user input to "shift up" or "shift down"?
Simple, but effective. I feel like I personally wouldn't like it because I like having the extra layer of control a manual clutch lever, but I can see how it would appeal to people.

 

[GoRovers]

If I'm understanding the technology correctly, they basically took a normal motorcycle transmission and added a computer to operate the clutch and shift drum based on the user input to "shift up" or "shift down"?
Simple, but effective. I feel like I personally wouldn't like it because I like having the extra layer of control a manual clutch lever, but I can see how it would appeal to people.

You are correct. It was a weird riding the AE at first, knowing I had to shift, but with no clutch lever to "feather" or feel the friction zone. The AE did a smooth job at slow speeds, especially when I kept it in 2nd gear when stopping (red light) and starting. And the power (as I knew from owning an FJR1300A years ago) is incredible. I wouldn't swap my NC DCT for the AE, but I'm glad for the test ride. ;-)

 

[dduelin]

I knew a fellow with one bought new and sold rather quickly. According to him the system "pulled in the clutch" at some preselected rpm under 2000 rpm and he dropped the bike at least once when he was going slow and turning and the clutch disengaged abruptly or at least when he wasn't expecting it. I'm not sure he ever gave himself a chance to get used to riding it.

 

[GoRovers]

I knew a fellow with one bought new and sold rather quickly. According to him the system "pulled in the clutch" at some preselected rpm under 2000 rpm and he dropped the bike at least once when he was going slow and turning and the clutch disengaged abruptly or at least when he wasn't expecting it. I'm not sure he ever gave himself a chance to get used to riding it.

Hmm, yeah, I don't think that's a known issue with AE, so it may have been user error. I'd never ridden one before this video, and during a couple of U-turns it behaved nicely. I kept it in 2nd when stopping/starting, per my buddy's suggestion. Seat time is the best trainer for anything new.

 

[TheIronWarrior]

I knew a fellow with one bought new and sold rather quickly. According to him the system "pulled in the clutch" at some preselected rpm under 2000 rpm and he dropped the bike at least once when he was going slow and turning and the clutch disengaged abruptly or at least when he wasn't expecting it. I'm not sure he ever gave himself a chance to get used to riding it.

Did he mention if it seemed like the clutch operated with an "on/off" logic rather then allowing some form of feathering?
I think it would be an interesting concept to link the clutch operation somehow to throttle and rear brake inputs to "sense" when you were slow speed maneuvering and allow it to spend more time in the friction zone.
That's the main reason I prefer manuals to any form of automatic, I want to know how the clutch (really, the whole drivetrain) is going to behave at all times, and the easiest way for me to do that is to have as full control over it.
I think it's something I could get used to, learn how the system operated and anticipate the computer's actions, but I tend to stick with what I know.
I had a Blackberry for much longer than most people because the physical keyboard was more comfortable for me than a touchscreen. I've since moved on to a "modern" phone, and it's fine, but I still pine for all the clicky buttons...

 

[dduelin]

It was well over 10 years ago and I don't remember him going into detail.

The 'I prefer complete control over clutch operation' sentiment is heard quite often in DCT or NOT discussions. I get it. Having ridden or driven 2 and 4 wheel manuals, semi-automatic manuals, CVTs, and now DCTs over 50 years I understand the thought behind it but when examined closer no person is able to control the clutch as precisely as Honda's PCM computer and it behaves exactly as programmed 100% of the time. It never gets tired or distracted and feathers the clutch exactly the same way in every situation presented to it. Unless there is a malfunction in the system the clutch can be counted upon to behave exactly the same way every shift, every ride, every time with only minute adjustments allowed through the reinitialization procedure Honda gives. We may not like the programming of the PCM but that's a different subject altogether.

 

[TheIronWarrior]

It was well over 10 years ago and I don't remember him going into detail.

The 'I prefer complete control over clutch operation' sentiment is heard quite often in DCT or NOT discussions. I get it. Having ridden or driven 2 and 4 wheel manuals, semi-automatic manuals, CVTs, and now DCTs over 50 years I understand the thought behind it but when examined closer no person is able to control the clutch as precisely as Honda's PCM computer and it behaves exactly as programmed 100% of the time. It never gets tired or distracted and feathers the clutch exactly the same way in every situation presented to it. Unless there is a malfunction in the system the clutch can be counted upon to behave exactly the same way every shift, every ride, every time with only minute adjustments allowed through the reinitialization procedure Honda gives. We may not like the programming of the PCM but that's a different subject altogether.

I'm not talking about precision in control, though, or even really predictable behaviour. More about my ability to vary the input based on what I want to do in that instance.
Sometimes I want to open the throttle and accelerate as fast as my current gear will allow, sometimes I want to downshift (understanding M mode, or the before mentioned computer-clutch-manual-gear-select system aren't susceptible to this). Sometimes I want to feather the clutch more or less during nearly identical other system inputs. It's the "predictability" of the system that is exactly why I personally prefer manual. I'm not going to say anyone is wrong for preferring a full- or semi-automatic style transmission, because for how they drive/ride it might be the perfect option, and objectively better (for them) than a manual, but that is simply not the case for me.

 

[dduelin]

Believe me I understand what you are saying. No worries. It's great that Honda still gives a choice with each model that has the DCT option. That's why they make so many flavors of ice cream. Cats and monohulls, fin keelers and centerboarders, sloops and ketches.

My own experience as an enthusiast is that with DCT we are able to learn how to optimize the firmware, software, and existing controls to make the machine do what we want to in any given situation. It may not do some things a manual can do or some things as well as a manual and it might require some examination of what is considered the essential 'control' needed but on the other hand the opposite is also true. A DCT can do some things better than a manual and do some things with ease a manual cannot do at all. Getting to this place of acceptance might involve doing something differently with the controls that do carry over as a work around of not having a manual clutch or learning a new set of skills entirely. Sometimes people say to that "well, you are just have to work around the inherent shortcomings and it's not necessary to do any of that adapting to or using work-arounds and/or monkey business at all with a manual." Sure thing I hear you but the rider saying that will also never learn to exploit what DCT can do and/or enlarge his two wheel skill set. I don't care one way or the other that is their decision.

In the same way those riders that have a long riding resume could say similar things about riding peaky two-strokes vs torquey 4 stroke singles or highly tuned revvy fours vs grunty twins or V4s. We start and end at the same place and use different strengths of various bikes to get to the end of the same ride. Chocolate or Cookies & Cream?

Man, I'm just blessed so much that I can walk outside and pick which bike to ride today. Manual, DCT, or CVT? (and I mean today - it's 78 degrees F and sunny and I'm going out in a little while for a couple of hours) I want to break in the new tires on the NCX.

 

[TheIronWarrior]

Believe me I understand what you are saying. No worries. It's great that Honda still gives a choice with each model that has the DCT option. That's why they make so many flavors of ice cream. Cats and monohulls, fin keelers and centerboarders, sloops and ketches.

My own experience as an enthusiast is that with DCT we are able to learn how to optimize the firmware, software, and existing controls to make the machine do what we want to in any given situation. It may not do some things a manual can do or some things as well as a manual and it might require some examination of what is considered the essential 'control' needed but on the other hand the opposite is also true. A DCT can do some things better than a manual and do some things with ease a manual cannot do at all. Getting to this place of acceptance might involve doing something differently with the controls that do carry over as a work around of not having a manual clutch or learning a new set of skills entirely. Sometimes people say to that "well, you are just have to work around the inherent shortcomings and it's not necessary to do any of that adapting to or using work-arounds and/or monkey business at all with a manual." Sure thing I hear you but the rider saying that will also never learn to exploit what DCT can do and/or enlarge his two wheel skill set. I don't care one way or the other that is their decision.

In the same way those riders that have a long riding resume could say similar things about riding peaky two-strokes vs torquey 4 stroke singles or highly tuned revvy fours vs grunty twins or V4s. We start and end at the same place and use different strengths of various bikes to get to the end of the same ride. Chocolate or Cookies & Cream?

Man, I'm just blessed so much that I can walk outside and pick which bike to ride today. Manual, DCT, or CVT? (and I mean today - it's 78 degrees F and sunny and I'm going out in a little while for a couple of hours) I want to break in the new tires on the NCX.

I feel the same way. Objectively, one isn't "better" or "worse" than the other, they are just different. Different is good, since people are different, and situations are different.
What a boring world it would be if everything could be "optimized" in such a way that only the "better" options were produced. Eventually, there would only be one kind of anything because everything else would be "worse".
I'm sure I'd enjoy a DCT, and with experience I'd figure out how to have it "behave" the way I'd like, or at least be used to the way it did. For me personally, manual shift gives me more joy, and isn't that, at the core, why we all ride? For other people, the DCT improves their experience, and that's just fine, too.

I'm envious of the weather you are having. We are at the highest temperature we've seen in at least a week at 6C (43F) with an ice storm on the way and overnight temperatures in 2 days of -20C (-4F). I'm not even sure if the warmer temperatures and wet rain we get before the ice will be enough to get rid of the almost 2 feet of snow we got last weekend before everything becomes encased in a thick layer of ice. Riding is still a few month away for me...

 

[the Ferret]

Something I can do with my DCT that I cannot do with my manual is walk it into my garage parking place at literally 1 mph on the speedometer using throttle control alone

One thing I can do with my manual that I cannot do with my DCT is what I call "hesitate' during a really sharp slow speed 90 degree turn, where I pull in the clutch to disconnect power, before completing the turn, and applying power by letting out the clutch again

You learn to adapt

 

[Oldbear]

I owned an AE FJR. Loved it and put a bunch of miles on it. An absolutely rock solid bike for the Slab. I bit on the porky side at low speed. But that engine an trans was seriously sweet.