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Ignition Switch Issues

lootzyan

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..the issue could be a defective side stand switch (sensor)...are you putting the kickstand up each time you try to start the bike? Is the kickstand down when it wont start? Is it up when it does start?
With the side stand in any position, up or down, the engine should start.
 

fleetingyouth

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The kickstand is down when I start the bike but I did try to start it with it up and it wouldnt start. I dont think it is the kickstand or the kill switch because as 670cc said earlier in the post "if you hear clicking when you press the starter switch, all interlocks are probably satisfied"

I did manage to get it to start right up today but I am no closer to figuring out what the issue is. I pulled the battery and relay yesterday. So the battery was warm when I re-installed it. I also re-cleaned all the terminals, battery/relay. I also swapped the fuse in the relay when I had it out though it didn't look blown.
I started the bike 3 time with no issues battery still has good voltage.

I'm going to go out in a few hours and see if it starts after the battery has been out in the cold for a while and I will leave the battery in tonight to try starting it tomorrow. Maybe the cheap battery just doesnt have the amps in cold weather to work consistently.

It still could be a relay or starter issues but until I can test the starter I wont know.
 

lootzyan

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If you could verify (your thread #17) the order of what you heard after pressing the starter switch: click - click and then "... there are two distinct geared motor whirling sounds one starts then they overlap..."?
If you hear "click-click" then this is the starter relay switch "on-off" sound. This most often happens when the battery does not have enough energy and the load from the starter causes the voltage to drop below the level to keep the relay "on".
The motor whirring sounds can only come from the starter motor that is trying to engage. But you shouldn't hear it if the starter relay switch is in the "off" position (or after second "click" sound).
I think you should inspect the starter motor gear or, according to the Service Manual, starter clutch or starter reduction gear/shaft
Try to push the motorcycle just a little in 2nd or 3rd gear, return to neutral and try to start the engine. If you succeed… go straight to the shop.
 

fleetingyouth

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The two motoring sounds come after both clicks and are very soft I had to stick my head in the frunk to hear them. I agree the two clicks are the relay on-off sound. I dont know what the motoring sound is it sounds similar to a fuel pump sound more than a starter motor but If it wasn't working correctly I dont know what it would sound like. What other motoring sound could it be?

I have a DCT so I can't put it in gear and test that.

At this point based on a lot of the info provided, I'm leaning towards either the battery sucks in the cold or there is something wrong with the relay. Its running today i'll check again tomorrow and if I keep having issues I'll test the starter in the spring.
 

MZ5

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The whirring sound to me means the fuel pump is running, but that shuts off as soon as it gets the line up to pressure.
 

lootzyan

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...I have a DCT so I can't put it in gear and test that...
You should mention this first.
You can hear motor whirring sounds, one from the fuel pump and one from the DCT shift control motor - initial control of DCT in neutral.
But this can be heard after the ignition is turned on but before you can start the engine.
The fact is that the NC(CTX) DCT should have a higher capacity battery than the current type. The initial energy requirement is much higher than that of a NC with a manual gearbox. Honda did not make sure that as much energy as possible was available for the starter and PGM-Fi when starting the engine. It would not be so difficult to program the PCM so that when the engine is started, turn off the power, for example, to the headlights, to the ABS, etc. My over 20-year-old Nissan Altima does it. Why overload the battery unnecessarily?
You can make a test whether disconnecting the headlights (50 W) (pull out the fuse) will help to start the engine. This would be a signal that the battery really does not have enough juices.
 

670cc

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A volt meter really needs to be employed here to determine what is happening a various points between the battery and starter, with reference to chassis ground. We can’t see electricity but we can definitely measure it. Without voltage measurements, at this point in the troubleshooting we/you are just making wild guesses the could result in wasted time or money.
 

lootzyan

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I agree to some extent. But at the moment, considering the weather conditions in Boston now, what one can do is find out if the battery is causing the trouble in a relatively simple way. Just connect the battery to a fully charged, larger capacity battery. If you want to connect to the car's battery, do not start the car's engine. This is just a precaution as some vehicles have a higher alternator charge voltage than the NC (CTX) does.
If detailed measurements of the voltage drops between individual points in the circuit are required, it is necessary to have good access to the connection points. In NC, even in workshop conditions, it is not that simple. In my CTX it is much easier compared to NC. And of course you need a good overview and understanding of the electrical diagram. The list of requirements for proper troubleshooting is quite long and there is no room for half measures.
 

fleetingyouth

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A volt meter really needs to be employed here to determine what is happening a various points between the battery and starter, with reference to chassis ground. We can’t see electricity but we can definitely measure it. Without voltage measurements, at this point in the troubleshooting we/you are just making wild guesses the could result in wasted time or money.

I appreciate everyone's help and I realize I'm not approaching this analytically from top to bottom. When I had a garage and all my tools it was easy to diagnose and repair problems. Now in my current living situation, the bike is on the sidewalk, in not the nicest area and all my tools are in a storage locker.
So I'm trying to do what I can with what I have since my bike is my only vehicle.

Greg I have been testing with a meter throughout and I'm open to instructions on what would help give a better idea of the problem. Part of what is difficult is sometimes the bike works and other times it doesnt. Cold weather may be a factor but not always.

Today it is 30ish out and the bike sat all night. I just went out and tested the battery 13 volts. I tested the lead to the relay 13 volts. I hit the starter switch the voltage drops to mid 11 volts and the relay sent the same voltage through the second post to the starter. The bike started right up with no issues.

Ill take it for a spin tomorrow and repeat the procedure. If and when the bike doesnt start again I will report what voltages change from the above.

Anything else you would like me to test or add to this procedure to help identify any potential problems?

I couldnt find a way to test the starter online without taking the plastics off but if anyone knows of a trick or way to get access to it Ill try that.
 

670cc

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I appreciate everyone's help and I realize I'm not approaching this analytically from top to bottom. When I had a garage and all my tools it was easy to diagnose and repair problems. Now in my current living situation, the bike is on the sidewalk, in not the nicest area and all my tools are in a storage locker.
So I'm trying to do what I can with what I have since my bike is my only vehicle.

Greg I have been testing with a meter throughout and I'm open to instructions on what would help give a better idea of the problem. Part of what is difficult is sometimes the bike works and other times it doesnt. Cold weather may be a factor but not always.

Today it is 30ish out and the bike sat all night. I just went out and tested the battery 13 volts. I tested the lead to the relay 13 volts. I hit the starter switch the voltage drops to mid 11 volts and the relay sent the same voltage through the second post to the starter. The bike started right up with no issues.

Ill take it for a spin tomorrow and repeat the procedure. If and when the bike doesnt start again I will report what voltages change from the above.

Anything else you would like me to test or add to this procedure to help identify any potential problems?

I couldnt find a way to test the starter online without taking the plastics off but if anyone knows of a trick or way to get access to it Ill try that.
You are on the right path. The voltage dropped to ~11 because the starter loaded the battery and there was voltage drop in the wires due to the current flow. That gives us a baseline. The same test done on a no-start condition may yield important clues.
 

Hondafan

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Another possibility is corrosion on the 12v cable that goes from the starter relay to the starter. It is under the rubber cap on the back of the starter. It could be loose or corroded.
 

fleetingyouth

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This is just an update. I've managed to use/start the bike every day since my last post.

So I'll keep waiting for it to start acting up again or hope I fixed it haha
 
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fleetingyouth

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Ok it is almost a year later and the first really cold day and the problem is back again. Last time cleaning the solenoid seemed to stop the issue.

Today the bike wouldnt start, later I went out tested the battery and it was fine. It seems like it is doing the exact same thing as last time. I'll probably pull the solenoid tomorrow test it and clean it.

What would cause these issues to start when it gets cold? is it corrosion from the weather? Could it be something else causing the problem?

Thanks
 

lootzyan

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...Last time cleaning the solenoid seemed to stop the issue.
...Could it be something else causing the problem?
The list of problems is quite long. If you have the Service Manual, study sections 6. If you don't have one, I can make photocopies of the most important parts of troubleshooting. At the top of the list will be 4 components: battery, solenoid (starter relay switch), starter motor and electrical connections between them.
Could you describe in more details what you mean by "cleaning the solenoid".
Do you have the right conditions for small repairs? I have an unheated garage and when the temperature drops below 40 it would be difficult to convince me to spend there more than 15 minutes at a time.
 

TheIronWarrior

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If I understand correctly, intermittently and more likely (though not strictly) when cold outside, your starter motor does not turn when you go to start the bike?
Any other details that seem relevant? Like, does the failure to start present more often when it's cold out but the bike is warm? More common after sitting overnight vs a few minutes? Any details might help guide the troubleshooting.
Intermittent faults are a pain to diagnose because you could go a while before the condition presents, and by the time you've got what you need to test, the condition could disappear again.

CAUTION: ONLY TRY THIS IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND HAVE TAKEN ALL NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS!
Will the start motor turn if you apply battery voltage directly to the terminals? Make sure everything else (ignition keyswitch, run/stop switch) is off before you do this!

Also, where you have the DCT model, there are two relays in the start circuit. The main "Starter Relay Switch" which is common to the 30A Main Fuse (both transmissions have this) is what is powered to engage the start motor.
The ground line from this relay passes through a "Start Relay" (not on the Manual models) before reaching ground. The trigger for this relay is PCM controlled on the ground side of the relay. I'm assuming this is where all the interlock-magic happens, as the Manual Transmission versions have the interlocks down this ground line instead. Unfortunately, this means that there is potential (though I think it extremely unlikely) that a failed PCM is the problem.
The main Starter Relay Switch I believe is just to the right of the battery under a protective rubber cap. The Start Relay is on the Fuse/Relay Panel to the left of the battery. Check and see that both are clicking when you try and start. Of course, the main relay won't close if the "Start Relay" on the fuse panel doesn't close, so I'd start with that one.
 

showkey

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Post # 15 in this thread is important, so it bares repeating and clarification to get more relevant possible causes:

“Since people sometimes use different terms for starting, cranking, ignition, etc, it hasn’t been totally clear to me whether the starter is spinning the engine or not. The term used is that it doesn’t “start“. There was mention of clicks heard, perhaps in lieu of the starter motor, so that might be an indication that the starter motor is not turning the crankshaft.

1. Engine cranks ( turns over) but does not start or run
2. Engine does not crank or turn over

Then there other details in not starting buts cranks like tries to run stumbles and stops or never gives any indication of running or firing.

One other question/statement……if it cranks but does not start especially cold or first start in the morning cold……try opening the throttle about 1/4 turn While cranking. This bypasses the idle air controller.…….which as come up in prior posts, sticky IAC.
 

fleetingyouth

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OK I'm going to read over the new comments but wanted to post an update first.

Went out this morning and the bike wouldnt start. So I tested the battery it was 12.8ish dropped to 11.8ish when hitting the switch. This is a normal range for the bike when it starts with no issues. It was really cold and I had to head to work so I couldnt pull the solenoid to clean it. Instead I tested it by carefully bridging the poles and it started right up. It started all day after that with no issues.

Back in March the last thing I did before the problem seemed to be fixed was pull the solenoid spray it with cleaner and wire brush it. That seemed to be the end of the issue until now.

So based on this it seems like maybe bad contact on the solenoid? or something when cold causing it to not work every time? Could something before or after the solenoid be the issue? It seems like the starter works when the solenoid does and the battery has enough juice.
 

bigbird

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So based on this it seems like maybe bad contact on the solenoid?
From your description, it seems like cold ambient temps exacerbate the non-starting issue.
That tells me that this could be a solenoid mechanical problem or a water condensation problem in the solenoid.
Having never dug into an NC750 starter solenoid, my question is about any part of the solenoid or its housing that are now exposed to air infiltration that are normally supposed to be sealed?
I would visually inspect the solenoid or its housing for an integrity breach if there isn't supposed to be one, or if a vent is blocked when it shouldn't be.
 
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showkey

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Agree on the solenoid……..‘13 NC models were not included in this recall……but………

Problem: Honda (American Honda Motor Co.) is recalling certain model year 2013-2015 ST1300PA, 2014-2015 CB500, CBR500, CRF250L, CBR650, CTX700, NSS300, VT750, VT1300, 2015 CB300F, CBR300, CBR600, and 2014-2016 NC700 motorcycles. In the affected motorcycles, sealant may have been incorrectly applied to the starter relay switch, and as a result, the electrical system may have a loss of power. Recall Details

Here’s a picture of weather proof sealed relay from a RV that inside the cabin…….corrosion caused voltage drop across the contacts and was intermitten.
00B24410-523E-4A40-98AA-A2D80D88C593.jpeg
 
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