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Question NC700X won't turn over...?

spark82

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Hello everyone, I have a strange problem. The bike in question is a '13 NC700XA. In the autumn I had starting problems, engine moved a little but the starter couldn't produce enough speed to start the bike. I thought maybe a bad battery, so bought a new one (old battery was a little weak). The season came to an end, but after installing the new battery a few times I still felt like starting the bike is a little difficult as if like the starter motor turns the engine a little slower than usual. Now today a friend of mine came to check out my bike as he wants to buy something like that, and I failed to start the bike (oh the shame). The new battery was on trickle charger, so one would think it's OK, but it acted as a dead battery. All it did was to turn the engine a little, but I felt it couldn't get through the compression (so it didn' really make a full turn.), the display blank while I pushed the starter button, it came back to life after, headlight looks OK, fuel pump sound normal (not with as a dead battery) I tried a new car battery also and the starter couldn't turn over the engine with that either. Moves a little but stops and after I release the starter switch I hear the engine moving back as if compression pushes it back. I attempted several times but I only to managed to get a few turns, but not near enough speed to start the engine. (The battery starts a car.) After that I tried to touch the jump cables directly to the starter motor cables to eliminate the starter relay from the equation, the result was the same as before. Now I removed the starter motor to check if there was something at fault there, but couldn't find anything obvious, I made the basic measurements, bearings, brushes look OK.
All in all I feel as if the starter motor is weak or the engine is hard to turn, I cannot really say it differently. I'll put the starter motor back tomorrow. Any ideas, what might be the problem? Thanks in advance for any input.
 
In the autumn, when it had starting issues, did the engine perform normally once it was running? Or has the engine never run on it’s own since the starting issue arose?

You haven’t made any mention of voltages or resistances measured, so I gather you are not approaching this entirely from an electrical point of view. Do you have a voltmeter/ohmmeter and know how to use it?
 
In the autumn, when it had starting issues, did the engine perform normally once it was running? Or has the engine never run on it’s own since the starting issue arose?

You haven’t made any mention of voltages or resistances measured, so I gather you are not approaching this entirely from an electrical point of view. Do you have a voltmeter/ohmmeter and know how to use it?

Once it was running, there was no problem, ran smooth. But a few times I even had to push it and hop on to get it started. After that I bought the new battery, and it started up with that but sometimes the display went blank and I kinda felt the starter is slower than usual (not always though) The season came to an end and I had a lot of things going on until now. And now it wouldn't start at all.
I haven't mentioned voltages and resistances, but I measured them. Batteries are about 10,5-10,7V while I'm pushing the starter button and the starter "tries" (and fails) to turn the engine, about 12,6-12,7V ignition off, 12,4-5 with ignition and lights on. And the car battery didn't have a problem to start a cold 4-cylinder 2.1 liter van engine this afternoon. I'm an electrical engineer, so believe me, at first I approached the problem from an electrical point of view :)
First I suspected contact problem but I haven't found any (battery, relay, starter motor, all looked and measured OK). Then I thought of the starter relay, so I eliminated that. Then I thought the starter but I couldn't find a fault there so far. It works, I connected it directly to the battery, it spins like hell, I disassembled it, cleaned it, there was no sign of obvious fault. And today it couldn't start the engine, barely even to get a few revolutions with a good car battery, even without the relay in the circuit. Strange.
 
I was wondering, are you attempting to start the engine with the transmission in neutral, or in gear with clutch disengaged and rear wheel on the ground?
 
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I was wondering, are you attempting to start the engine with the transmission in neutral, or in gear with clutch disengaged and rear wheel on the ground?
I have no experience with NC with a manual gearbox so I can only rely on the service manual which states that:
"The starter motor turns when the transmission is in neutral, but does not turn with the transmission in any position except neutral, with the sidestand up and the clutch lever pulled in. (NC700X / XA / S / SA)"
 
I have no experience with NC with a manual gearbox so I can only rely on the service manual which states that:
"The starter motor turns when the transmission is in neutral, but does not turn with the transmission in any position except neutral, with the sidestand up and the clutch lever pulled in. (NC700X / XA / S / SA)"
The statement you quoted from the manual is confusing, but I’d interpret it to be false for a manual transmission NC. After the second comma, I believe the statement should read, “unless the sidestand is up and the clutch lever pulled in.”

I almost never start my NC in neutral unless it is on the center stand, and then primarily because it is being serviced. 99% of the time, I start it in 1st gear, with me on the bike, the sidestand up, and the clutch lever pulled in.
 
Have you measured the resistance of the starter motor windings?
Measuring the resistance of a starter motor winding with a commonly available multimeters is useless. For the most part, the resistance of the winding should be around 0.3 Ohms. This is too small a value to be relied on for the reliability of a measurement. So you had to measure voltage and current.
 
Measuring the resistance of a starter motor winding with a commonly available multimeters is useless. For the most part, the resistance of the winding should be around 0.3 Ohms. This is too small a value to be relied on for the reliability of a measurement. So you had to measure voltage and current.
lootzyan is correct. One would need a very good ohmmeter and high quality leads, and would need to account for the inherent resistance of the test leads. And even then I wouldn’t consider it reliable enough to condemn a marginally bad starter motor.
 
The statement you quoted from the manual is confusing, but I’d interpret it to be false for a manual transmission NC. After the second comma, I believe the statement should read, “unless the sidestand is up and the clutch lever pulled in.”

I almost never start my NC in neutral unless it is on the center stand, and then primarily because it is being serviced. 99% of the time, I start it in 1st gear, with me on the bike, the sidestand up, and the clutch lever pulled in.
This is interesting. I have the Service Manual for the NC700 and CTX700 and they both give the same erroneous information, page 6-7
 
This is interesting. I have the Service Manual for the NC700 and CTX700 and they both give the same erroneous information, page 6-7
I think the wording in the service manual is poor and unclear. The 2012 NC700X owner’s manual states the manual transmission model engine starting requirements more clearly. See my attached photo.
9A95405D-35C1-44CA-859A-1CE8EC24D78E.jpeg
 
I was wondering, are you attempting to start the engine with the transmission in neutral, or in gear with clutch disengaged and rear wheel on the ground?
I considered that maybe the clutch is stuck somehow, but tested it, if I put it in gear and pull the lever, I can turn the rear wheel so that's one thing checked.
 
Have you measured the resistance of the starter motor windings?
I made some measurements, but as the others said, it's next to useless. I measured if there's a short somewhere where it shouldn't be, and if there's continuity where it should, that far it seems OK. Brushes OK, not stuck, minimal carbon dust, not enough to short anything. Still thinking. Next thing I'll try tomorrow that maybe I'll get out the spark plugs and I'll try to crank it that way. Should turn around quite fast. If not, that's a new situation again.
 
Also, anyone heard about a faulty starter motor? I haven't, really. Not a typical fault, or typical enough that people don't mention it?
 
You will probably need to consider checking the connections to ground. The fact that the display goes blank may indicate that the connections are not very reliable. It doesn't require much electrical science , but just disconnecting the connectors, cleaning etc.
 
A worthwhile troubleshooting exercise might be to put a voltmeter between the battery negative terminal and a clean, conductive ground point on the engine, and see if there is excessive voltage drop noted between those two points during starter cranking. That might indicate a poor ground connection between battery and starter motor.

Also, you can pull the inspection plug on the left side of the crankshaft and turn the engine with a socket wrench at least 720 degrees in the normal rotation direction, to ensure the engine is turning freely. Having the spark plugs out will make this easier.
 
A worthwhile troubleshooting exercise might be to put a voltmeter between the battery negative terminal and a clean, conductive ground point on the engine, and see if there is excessive voltage drop noted between those two points during starter cranking. That might indicate a poor ground connection between battery and starter motor.

Also, you can pull the inspection plug on the left side of the crankshaft and turn the engine with a socket wrench at least 720 degrees in the normal rotation direction, to ensure the engine is turning freely. Having the spark plugs out will make this easier.
You need to rely on a good battery to perform such a test. Probably a well-charged car battery. The spark plug cables should be disconnected to prevent the engine from starting. It would also be desirable to use, for example, a clamp type ammeter. These are not complicated activities but require a methodical approach.
 
Update: remounted the cleaned starter motor. The engine turns over without any suspicious noise or sign if the spark plugs are out. Still somehow it feels to me slower than usual (I'm not sure about that, it's just a feeling). If I put back one plug, it sometimes fails to turn, if both plugs are in, it fails almost every time, a few times it gets one or two revolutions, and then gets stuck at the next compression stroke. I checked and cleaned the connections, I tried to feed the starter motor directly from the battery with jump cables, same result. Any ideas?
 
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