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NC750X DCT shift points. Is this normal??

Check out my vid.

Seems like you've been flogging it in S mode a bit? So it will need special soft riding to consider 6th

In D your 6th works normal. I suspect S has learned this behaviour. You can always reset your DCT computer. There is a threat on it here can't find it though.

[video]https://youtu.be/pjXPsmrB8lE[/video]
 
Bert said:
Check out my vid.

Seems like you've been flogging it in S mode a bit? So it will need special soft riding to consider 6th

In D your 6th works normal. I suspect S has learned this behaviour. You can always reset your DCT computer. There is a threat on it here can't find it though.

[video]https://youtu.be/pjXPsmrB8lE[/video]
Click to expand...

Yes, maybe I should reset the DCT computer. But can it learn anything?? I mean all 750X DCT's shift to 6 gear at 65kmt i D mode, so what has it learned?
Is there any documentation from Honda explaining that the computer "learns", or is it all based on what people think?

I found some documents explaining when the computer should be reset, and that is only when the clutch has been changed it has to learn the "clutch point". Cant find anything documentation about, that the bike learns my driving style.
 
Has anyone successfully taught their DCT to shift at a different point? If so, how?
 
670cc said:
Has anyone successfully taught their DCT to shift at a different point? If so, how?
Click to expand...

I would like to know too!

The DCT dont "learn" anything.
The only thing it can "learn" is Clutch initiation during clutch repair/change and this wont affect the shift points.
Honda "abuse" the word "learn"... what they mean is that according to the amount of throttle you apply, the shift points is variable compared to the speed. It don't learn anything. All DCT's drives and shifts the same way.

Anyone here is welcome to prove me wrong, but I want to see some documentation explaining that the DCT has to learn my driving style. Also It would be nice to see where Honda notes that a new owner of a used machine should reset the DCT so it can learn the new owners driving style......I DONT THINK SO :rolleyes:
 
670cc said:
Has anyone successfully taught their DCT to shift at a different point? If so, how?
Click to expand...

I've said it before and I'll say it again but my bike when it was new used to buck when the DCT was downshifting from second to first. Now it doesn't do that. Is it me or the bike that has adapted? I don't know. I bought the DCT bike because I wanted an auto shifting bike somewhat like the Honda Silver Wing scooter I used to own. I rode the Silver Wing about 20,000 miles in the 2 years I owned it. That's 10,000 miles per year and only being able to ride the bike six months out of each year because of the weather. I bought the NC because I wanted better suspension, bigger wheels and better fuel economy. Is the DCT transmission on this bike perfect? No, it is not, but I'm keeping it and will try to continue to adapt to the bike and the way it works. If the bike doesn't work for you maybe you should move on to something else. Good luck.
 
In a friendly counter rebuttal, I would say of course the ECU has a learning algorithm, Honda has stated this ever since the DCT technology was introduced. Now how well it works, that apparently is very much open to individual perception.

The average rider who just jumps on a DCT, and expects it to behave identically as all their other motorcycles have done, except it automatically shifts perfectly for their unique style under all circumstances, well...I'm thinking that out of a 100% success chart potential, some won't be satisfied. Some will approach it thinking the bike is "wrong" and they are "right". I don't think this is conducive to helping that rider understand and benefit from the process. I would look at it like solving a riddle or algebra equation. Just because you don't know the answer immediately, does not mean the premise is flawed or incorrect, it's just that it hasn't been solved by you yet.

IMHO The whole *point* of S mode and the learning part, is to hang in each gear as long as possible prior to going up, if that's what has been input for it to work from under prior conditions. In your video, it appeared that you were complaining that the bike didn't shift into 6th when you were higher up in the rev range in 5th. Well, I'm confused. To me, why would it have shifted? You weren't anywhere near redline, and in sport mode. That strikes me as the DCT's ECU *did* learn, that it shouldn't shift any earlier.

Again, I'm only replying as how I'm looking at the problem presented. Did you ever put it in Sport, and then whack the throttle full open, not backing off at redline? You did this and it still didn't shift into 6th? Or did you always simply roll on the throttle and then leave it there, expecting the bike to know that you wanted it to arbitrarily shift up?

Also, isn't that what the ability to manually hit the shifter button is for? To override the current dynamics of a situation, as suited to the rider at any given point?


This small excerpt from 2014 Honda NC700X DCT ABS Review - Motorcycle.com seems to sum up things fairly well:


"Since proper clutch control can be a major hurdle to new riders, the dual-clutch tranny eliminates the clutch lever and can provide fully automatic shifting as on some sporty automobiles. Rolling away from a stop requires nothing more than twisting the throttle. In the DCT’s Drive and Sport modes, gear choice is left up to the ECU, with Sport providing quicker responses while using a higher portion of the engine’s rev range. The ECU’s “learning function” monitors the engine to determine the riding environment (throttle and gear positions, speed, etc.) and anticipate what action will be required next, allowing the shift points to vary within the same mode."

For times when more rider involvement is desired, Honda’s DCT has given the rider the ability to temporarily override the DCT with the shift paddles on the left grip. A short period after utilizing the shift paddles to select a gear, the Engine Control Unit (ECU) will return to the automatic mode. As a rider’s experience level increases, the DCT’s paddle-shifting manual mode gives more control and can be easily engaged via a switch on the right handgrip.

While the DCT’s Drive mode is focused on user-friendly performance and fuel economy, rolling on the throttle still moves you past traffic without drama. Whacking the throttle open causes a quick downshift (or two) to occur before strong acceleration begins. In order to avoid the shifting delay after the throttle is opened, experienced riders will prefer to preemptively override the DCT by downshifting manually and thus shortening the reaction time significantly. Sport mode changes the gear selection, and downshifts come sooner, giving the benefit of a little engine braking entering corners. Experienced riders will grin as they thumb a couple quick downshifts on corner entry, roll on the throttle, and let the DCT do all the upshifting work. With the DCT arrangement, changing gears is amazingly seamless."
 
I'm just trying to understand the often repeated statement about the self learning feature of the DCT. Sounds like from the few comments here that perhaps the clutch actuation mechanism may have a self calibration feature. That might explain why kpinvt saw improvement over time in the smoothness of shifting from second to first. This would be an optimization of the mechanical operation of the transmission, not an adaptation to a particular rider or riding style.
 
I hope my tone was OK, I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I wish I had taken the time L.B.S. did in his reply. I like the bike, not everyone will.

I left a piece of info out earlier: The Silver Wing I rode 20,000 miles in 2 years. The BMW G650GS I had for the 3 years after the Honda I rode 12,000 miles total and the PC800 that followed the BMW I rode a total of 2,500 miles in 2 years. The PC was my "Dream Bike" that I found too painful to ride for more than an hour. Buying the DCT NC is an attempt to get back to high mileage riding.
 
670cc said:
I'm just trying to understand the often repeated statement about the self learning feature of the DCT. Sounds like from the few comments here that perhaps the clutch actuation mechanism may have a self calibration feature. That might explain why kpinvt saw improvement over time in the smoothness of shifting from second to first. This would be an optimization of the mechanical operation of the transmission, not an adaptation to a particular rider or riding style.
Click to expand...


I guess what I'm having difficulty seeing, is that it doesn't strike me as that big a deal for the ecu to hold a fairly complex set of parametres, when applied to conditions presented. I mean it's probably doing hundreds, if not thousands of calculations per second, no?

Personally, I see it strictly as a 3-D mapping program: IF/OR/AND from all sensor input, and the "learning" appellation is perhaps a bit overreaching or perceived in a way somehow more imbued with anthropomorphized intelligence, rather than simply a variable formula that gets held in memory. A slightly more sophisticated version of the PGM-FI, with additional output to the DCT shifting solenoids and servos, etc.

My CX500Turbo shop manual has pages and pages and pages, devoted to complex mapping graphs and charts for it's ECU, and that was 1982! Based on 33 years of tech advancement since then, I can't help but imagine there is more than meets the eye as far as jangermann's supposition that there is absolutely nothing to Honda's claim in the matter.
 
670cc said:
I'm just trying to understand the often repeated statement about the self learning feature of the DCT. Sounds like from the few comments here that perhaps the clutch actuation mechanism may have a self calibration feature. That might explain why kpinvt saw improvement over time in the smoothness of shifting from second to first. This would be an optimization of the mechanical operation of the transmission, not an adaptation to a particular rider or riding style.
Click to expand...

I'm always leaving info out. The reason I think the DCT stopped the abrupt down shifts is I was manually down shifting in "D" when the bike was rolling to a stop. After a while the DCT no longer did that on it's own.
 
L.B.S. said:
IMHO The whole *point* of S mode and the learning part, is to hang in each gear as long as possible prior to going up, if that's what has been input for it to work from under prior conditions. In your video, it appeared that you were complaining that the bike didn't shift into 6th when you were higher up in the rev range in 5th. Well, I'm confused. To me, why would it have shifted? You weren't anywhere near redline, and in sport mode. That strikes me as the DCT's ECU *did* learn, that it shouldn't shift any earlier.

Again, I'm only replying as how I'm looking at the problem presented. Did you ever put it in Sport, and then whack the throttle full open, not backing off at redline? You did this and it still didn't shift into 6th? Or did you always simply roll on the throttle and then leave it there, expecting the bike to know that you wanted it to arbitrarily shift up?
Also, isn't that what the ability to manually hit the shifter button is for? To override the current dynamics of a situation, as suited to the rider at any given point?
Click to expand...

Hi L.B.S.
Thanks for you answer.

When doing a slow acceleration in "S" mode I was actually expecting the DCT to shift to 6 gear before the red line. If I just twisted the throttle fully open, I would expect it to hit the red line before shifting, and in this situation it would be ok (and it does).

The only thing that I am saying here is that the difference between D and S mode it too big. I feel that I can choose between to extremes.
In S mode we are talking about hitting the red line above 140 kmt before it shifts to 6 gear. In D mode it shift to 6 gear at 65kmt. It seems pretty extreme to me. Yes I know I manually can hit the shifter button, but that's not why I bought a DCT. I really miss a "normal mode".

Please don't tell me that I just can buy another bike... I know that :) I really like the NC750X and there is more positive stuff than negative, and I think that the solution that works for me, is the foot gear pedal add on option.
 
kpinvt said:
I hope my tone was OK, I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I wish I had taken the time L.B.S. did in his reply. I like the bike, not everyone will.

I left a piece of info out earlier: The Silver Wing I rode 20,000 miles in 2 years. The BMW G650GS I had for the 3 years after the Honda I rode 12,000 miles total and the PC800 that followed the BMW I rode a total of 2,500 miles in 2 years. The PC was my "Dream Bike" that I found too painful to ride for more than an hour. Buying the DCT NC is an attempt to get back to high mileage riding.
Click to expand...

I also hope my tone is OK :)
As I was writing to L.B.S I really generally like the bike. I love the frunk, the soft suspension and the riding style. I have the Shad Comfort seat mounted, and can ride all day long without any pain. The only thing that really strike me is the "extreme" DCT computer. I think the foot shifter option will fit my needs.... anyway I give it a try.
 
jangermann said:
Hi L.B.S.
Thanks for you answer.

When doing a slow acceleration in "S" mode I was actually expecting the DCT to shift to 6 gear before the red line. If I just twisted the throttle fully open, I would expect it to hit the red line before shifting, and in this situation it would be ok (and it does).

The only thing that I am saying here is that the difference between D and S mode it too big. I feel that I can choose between to extremes.
In S mode we are talking about hitting the red line above 140 kmt before it shifts to 6 gear. In D mode it shift to 6 gear at 65kmt. It seems pretty extreme to me. Yes I know I manually can hit the shifter button, but that's not why I bought a DCT. I really miss a "normal mode".

Please don't tell me that I just can buy another bike... I know that :) I really like the NC750X and there is more positive stuff than negative, and I think that the solution that works for me, is the foot gear pedal add on option.
Click to expand...

Trust me, I know what it's like to go: "Ack! My bike is doing something odd, and I'm not thrilled with it", and suffer the slings and arrows of others rolling their eyes and saying:" You're doing it wrong" lol! Grrrr! :mad: :D

Please don't take my replies with any kind of ill will or condescension, I'm just going along, speaking up as ideas or possibilities occur to me. :eek:

Bottom line, I believe if you want the basic characteristics that Sport seems to offer for the most part, but are getting frustrated with the c'mon shift already you horrible thing! waiting time, then ya, giving it a manual button push or shift lever override is the only pragmatic solution.

You want the "Goldilocks Zone" but are faced with too hot or too cold, as your only choices, and I fully understand ;)
 
I am a positive person L.B.S, so I can take the knocks it can give me to play with open cards :) I was hoping for response and I got it, thanks.

At the end it is probably a luxury problem, and yes I can just press that f...... button :D

But I still don't believe the learning thing :p
 
jangermann said:
Hi L.B.S.
Thanks for you answer.

When doing a slow acceleration in "S" mode I was actually expecting the DCT to shift to 6 gear before the red line. If I just twisted the throttle fully open, I would expect it to hit the red line before shifting, and in this situation it would be ok (and it does).

The only thing that I am saying here is that the difference between D and S mode it too big. I feel that I can choose between to extremes.
In S mode we are talking about hitting the red line above 140 kmt before it shifts to 6 gear. In D mode it shift to 6 gear at 65kmt. It seems pretty extreme to me. Yes I know I manually can hit the shifter button, but that's not why I bought a DCT. I really miss a "normal mode".

Please don't tell me that I just can buy another bike... I know that :) I really like the NC750X and there is more positive stuff than negative, and I think that the solution that works for me, is the foot gear pedal add on option.
Click to expand...

As far as I know with the foot shifter installed you can still make shifts with the buttons on the left hand grip. Maximum flexibility. There is a video on YouTube from a fellow in Scotland, I think, that shows his DCT bike with the foot shifter. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tf4e9iW8SU

I've seen this several times so now I can tell what he is saying.

Here is three more:

PART 1:HONDA NC700XD DCT FOOT SHIFT LEVER KIT Introduction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo0CoE-dEls

PART 2: INSTALLATION OF DCT FOOT LEVER SHIFT KIT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsiwLVHd3qE

PART 3: NC700XD DEMO RIDE WITH DCT FOOT SHIFT KIT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX8NoY-xGsQ

I haven't seen the last three yet, just found them.
 
Last edited:
All this discussion about DCT learning capabilities is a "Déjà vu - all over again". I think that everything started with this Honda Tech Views Q & A about new DCT, sometimes in 2012. If I remember this function was mentioned by many bloggers and by Kevin Ash also, (and that NC700 engine is a half of Honda Jazz/Fit B.S. story) before first NC DCT showed up in U.S.
After almost 3 years my DCT is as dumb as new - didn't learn anything.
I never noticed a problem with downshifting from 2-nd to 1-st. But I always have a nasty lugging on 3-rd gear at 16-19 mph (26 - 31 km/h). Now if I'm able to predict that situation I downshift manually.
That's why I don't believe in any such thing as learning function. Another red flag in the same Q & A article is a statement:
"...Dual Clutch Transmission system's ECU is programmed to minimize unnecessary gear changes by monitoring riding conditions on curvy roads like mountain passes..."
In what world? You need a load sensors, traction, cross wind sensors, you name it.
I challenge anyone to show me anything, in DCT system diagram below, even close to resemble what would be required to achieve gear shifting learning. To execute shifting program, speed control sensor and throttle position sensor are enough. And this is only what we have in our DCTs.

View attachment 24283
 
kpinvt said:
As far as I know with the foot shifter installed you can still make shifts with the buttons on the left hand grip. Maximum flexibility. There is a video on YouTube from a fellow in Scotland, I think, that shows his DCT bike with the foot shifter. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tf4e9iW8SU

I've seen this several times so now I can tell what he is saying.

Here is three more:

PART 1:HONDA NC700XD DCT FOOT SHIFT LEVER KIT Introduction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo0CoE-dEls

PART 2: INSTALLATION OF DCT FOOT LEVER SHIFT KIT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsiwLVHd3qE

PART 3: NC700XD DEMO RIDE WITH DCT FOOT SHIFT KIT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX8NoY-xGsQ

I haven't seen the last three yet, just found them.
Click to expand...

Thanks!
Seems easy to fit the shifter. Hopefully I will soon get at visit from the postman. I will keep you updated about my "project".
Thanks for the links.
 
lootzyan said:
All this discussion about DCT learning capabilities is a "Déjà vu - all over again". I think that everything started with this Honda Tech Views Q & A about new DCT, sometimes in 2012. If I remember this function was mentioned by many bloggers and by Kevin Ash also, (and that NC700 engine is a half of Honda Jazz/Fit B.S. story) before first NC DCT showed up in U.S.
After almost 3 years my DCT is as dumb as new - didn't learn anything.
I never noticed a problem with downshifting from 2-nd to 1-st. But I always have a nasty lugging on 3-rd gear at 16-19 mph (26 - 31 km/h). Now if I'm able to predict that situation I downshift manually.
That's why I don't believe in any such thing as learning function. Another red flag in the same Q & A article is a statement:
"...Dual Clutch Transmission system's ECU is programmed to minimize unnecessary gear changes by monitoring riding conditions on curvy roads like mountain passes..."
In what world? You need a load sensors, traction, cross wind sensors, you name it.
I challenge anyone to show me anything, in DCT system diagram below, even close to resemble what would be required to achieve gear shifting learning. To execute shifting program, speed control sensor and throttle position sensor are enough. And this is only what we have in our DCTs.

View attachment 24283
Click to expand...

Totally agree!!
By modifying the process values (pulses) coming from the sensors, it should be possible to change the way the DCT behave.
Ect. in D mode, when the bike is going 62kmt I know it is really close to shift to 6 (witch I hate), but if I modify the signal coming from the throttle position sensor, so it believe that the throttle is more open than it is, it will change later.

When doing the initialize thing with the clutch, also the the throttle close positions is saved. I could be a nice experiment to cheat the position of the close position so the bike think the throttle is more open than it is, and therefore shifts later.
just a thought :)

BTW, do you have the diagram in a better quality?
 
Last edited:
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