Question question about linked brakes

[16DCT]

From my understanding my 2016 NC700XD is equipped with linked rear-to-front brakes, meaning if I tap the rear brake it also puts a little bit of pressure on the front brake.

But what happens if I am using both front and rear brakes at the same time? Does the fact that I'm using the front brake manually override the linked brake feature, or does it still apply extra pressure to the front even though I'm already using the front brake lever?

 

[Deleted member 1183]

Tbh from my linked brake experience on a former Varadero I do not have a precise answer to your questions above. I don't think the front operation did an override. From memory the rear brake had a separate circuit and piston on one of the front discs. Not 100% sure though. On the Varadero I remember then there were all sorts questions in folks minds as to how they would work. From memory I had forgotten they were there after the first few hundred Kms. They worked well on that bike and there was never an issue with them.

 

[dduelin]

From my understanding my 2016 NC700XD is equipped with linked rear-to-front brakes, meaning if I tap the rear brake it also puts a little bit of pressure on the front brake.

But what happens if I am using both front and rear brakes at the same time? Does the fact that I'm using the front brake manually override the linked brake feature, or does it still apply extra pressure to the front even though I'm already using the front brake lever?

If your bike is a 2016 MY US bike the brakes aren't linked. Honda did not update the specifications of various NC700X models for several years following 2013.

The 2012 and 2013 XD USA models did have a linked brake system. Visually you can confirm this by examining the front brake caliper and hoses leading to it. Linked brakes have a 3 piston caliper with two hoses attached to the caliper. Non-linked have a 2 piston caliper with one hose.

Linked brake models apparently used the ABS module to apply pressure to front and rear calipers in linked mode. Other Honda models use a mechanical linkage.

 

[wheel_of_steel]

From my understanding my 2016 NC700XD is equipped with linked rear-to-front brakes, meaning if I tap the rear brake it also puts a little bit of pressure on the front brake.

But what happens if I am using both front and rear brakes at the same time? Does the fact that I'm using the front brake manually override the linked brake feature, or does it still apply extra pressure to the front even though I'm already using the front brake lever?

Yes, it's a 'dumb' hydraulic circuit - a third hydraulic system on top of the front and rear systems. It also has a delay valve built in. When you press the rear brake lever, initially only the rear brake applies, an an instant later, the delay valve opens and hydraulic pressure is sent to the third brake piston in the front.

To answer your question about using both at the same time, nothing gets over ridden because the front lever operates two pistons, and the rear 'link line' operates a third, independent piston that just happens to share a caliper. When you are using both brakes together, it just feels like the front brake is a bit more powerful than it truly is. The effect is mild and I mostly curse the linked brake system for adding more complexity.

For the front line and the link line to dramatically interact, you'd need to set up an extreme situation: retract all three front pistons all the way, reinstall the brake caliper, and then only use the link circuit/piston the re-extend the brake caliper to fit the disc. Then the first time you pull the front brake, your lever would go straight back to the bar without any resistance... In real life you'd need an incredibly bad mechanic and an incredibly bad rider for this situation to even occur.

Hope that clears it up. There's some good technical info on the linked brakes in the service manual.

 

[670cc]

Yes, it's a 'dumb' hydraulic circuit - a third hydraulic system on top of the front and rear systems. It also has a delay valve built in. When you press the rear brake lever, initially only the rear brake applies, an an instant later, the delay valve opens and hydraulic pressure is sent to the third brake piston in the front.

To answer your question about using both at the same time, nothing gets over ridden because the front lever operates two pistons, and the rear 'link line' operates a third, independent piston that just happens to share a caliper. When you are using both brakes together, it just feels like the front brake is a bit more powerful than it truly is. The effect is mild and I mostly curse the linked brake system for adding more complexity.

For the front line and the link line to dramatically interact, you'd need to set up an extreme situation: retract all three front pistons all the way, reinstall the brake caliper, and then only use the link circuit/piston the re-extend the brake caliper to fit the disc. Then the first time you pull the front brake, your lever would go straight back to the bar without any resistance... In real life you'd need an incredibly bad mechanic and an incredibly bad rider for this situation to even occur.

Hope that clears it up. There's some good technical info on the linked brakes in the service manual.

No, that doesn’t clear it up. On a US 2016 model NC700X, the subject of this thread, the front caliper has no third piston. A third front piston was used only on 2012 and 2013 ABS models In the USA.

 

[wheel_of_steel]

No, that doesn’t clear it up. On a US 2016 model NC700X, the subject of this thread, the front caliper has no third piston. A third front piston was used only on 2012 and 2013 ABS models In the USA.

The different market specs strike again. Australia moved to the nc750s in 2014 but retained the linked brakes from the 700s... We got the nc750x with non linked, ABS brakes in 2016.

My understanding is the two piston caliper NCs have no linked system.

Three piston front caliper + "C-ABS" sticker + two front brake lines = linked brakes.
Two piston front caliper + "ABS" sticker + single front brake line = non linked brakes

Unless the two piston ABS bikes use some electronic means of linking the brakes together, perhaps via the ABS module itself? I doubt it though, especially at the price point.

 

[670cc]

Honda is apparently using the term C-ABS on post 2013 USA market ABS models. Here is a 2016 model year rollout excerpt quoted below which appears to have come from a Honda press release and found posted on this site: https://www.hondaprokevin.com/motorcycles-models/2016/honda-nc700x-review-specs-nc700xg-adventure

——————
“3.6 Secure C-ABS braking

Honda is committed to improving motorcycle safety and is proud to offer a Combined Anti lock Braking System (C-ABS) as standard on the NC700X. The system dramatically improves braking performance in an emergency situation. The front and rear braking systems on two-wheeled vehicles are usually independent. This means the rider must use just the right amount of front and rear brake, a skill that comes only with experience. C-ABS links the two systems and works to optimise the pressure acting on each brake. The result is strong and safe deceleration. Additionally, C-ABS has full antilock functionality. Should the system detect either wheel is about to lock up and skid, C-ABS momentarily reduces the hydraulic pressure being applied to the relevant brake, ensuring powerful and secure braking in all conditions.”
——————

Technical details are left out, and I don’t have access to a 2016 service manual. If someone could read and paraphrase a 2014+ DCT/ABS service manual, perhaps we could learn how the C-ABS operates.

 

[TheIronWarrior]

Easy way to check, how many pots on the front brake caliper?
2 = non-linked
3 = linked (middle piston operated by rear pedal through a control valve as noted above)

The interesting thing about the linked braking is that to get best performance out of your front brake, you need to apply rear brake, as one of the front brake pistons is only operated by the rear pedal.
Not to say the front-lever-activated 2 pots don't do an adequate job, just that using 3 pistons gives better performance than just 2.

 

[TacomaJD]

Easy way to check, how many pots on the front brake caliper?
2 = non-linked
3 = linked (middle piston operated by rear pedal through a control valve as noted above)

The interesting thing about the linked braking is that to get best performance out of your front brake, you need to apply rear brake, as one of the front brake pistons is only operated by the rear pedal.
Not to say the front-lever-activated 2 pots don't do an adequate job, just that using 3 pistons gives better performance than just 2.

It was my understanding that the middle pot on the front 3 pot calipers was only activated under emergency situations where the abs sensor detects slippage of the rear tire. I could be completely wrong in that, I remember reading up on this a couple years ago when I bought my 2013 dct abs bike that does have the 3 pot front caliper. If it works like that, the linked part serves no benefit unless the rear tire locks up and slides.

 

[lootzyan]

This is what C-ABS looks like in 2012/13 NC/CTX.

 

[670cc]

This is what C-ABS looks like in 2012/13 NC/CTX.

View attachment 44807

It is fairly common knowledge how the 2012-2013 was set up. Do we have a diagram of how it works after 2013? Honda is touting what they call C-ABS on post 2013 models, or at least for sure on the 2016 description I referenced above, but there seems to be a lot of mystery. This is not the first thread where the question has come up.

People, the question was about a 2016 USA NC700X model. It has a two piston front caliper. All this talk about the older three piston front caliper sytsem is not helping to answer the original question; it is just adding confusion.

 

[lootzyan]

People, the question was about a 2016 USA NC700X model. It has a two piston front caliper. All this talk about the older three piston front caliper sytsem is not helping to answer the original question; it is just adding confusion...

The answer is obvious. After 2013, there was no combined brake system for NC/CTX models. Honda mentioned a new system they called a "real linked/combined brake system", but it was not clear at the time which new models would get it. If someone is interested, should check, for example, on the new Honda GW forums.

 

[TacomaJD]

People, the question was about a 2016 USA NC700X model. It has a two piston front caliper. All this talk about the older three piston front caliper sytsem is not helping to answer the original question; it is just adding confusion.

I understand where you are coming from, but what's wrong with learning how ALL the systems work while we try and figure out how a particular model's system work? It's not like we derailed into a which is the best oil or which is the best tires to run LOL. And discussing the older 3 pot system and which years came with the 3 pot caliper setup provides that knowledge to others who may not know of the difference in models. While I presume it may be just an opinion of mine, the more I can learn, the better. Even if it doesn't apply directly to my particular year model. But I do have a 2016 NC DCT (as well as the 2013), so I'm interested to figure out how the 2016 works as well.

 

[670cc]

My simple question is can someone explain the sentences in post #7 referring to a 2016 NC700X? It says, "Honda is committed to improving motorcycle safety and is proud to offer a Combined Anti lock Braking System (C-ABS) as standard on the NC700X. The system dramatically improves braking performance in an emergency situation. The front and rear braking systems on two-wheeled vehicles are usually independent. This means the rider must use just the right amount of front and rear brake, a skill that comes only with experience. C-ABS links the two systems and works to optimise the pressure acting on each brake." If Honda wrote that, what do they mean and how does it work? I don't know, and I don't think the question has been answered yet on this forum.

I get the feeling nobody knows the answer, including me, so we are just going in circles.

 

[670cc]

The answer is obvious. After 2013, there was no combined brake system for NC/CTX models. Honda mentioned a new system they called a "real linked/combined brake system", but it was not clear at the time which new models would get it. If someone is interested, should check, for example, on the new Honda GW forums.

If it is obvious, and after 2013 there was no combined brake system, then why does the description of the 2016 model say that it has Combined ABS?

 

[lootzyan]

Years ago, Honda presented the design of this new system. You can still find it.

Honda Global | Electronically Controlled Combined ABS - Picture Book

Electronically Controlled Combined ABS is the world's first electronically controlled braking system for super sport bikes. All levels of licensed riders can experience a new level of advanced braking performance on a large motorcycle simply by applying the brakes normally and firmly. The system...

global.honda

What of these intentions has become applicable today? A good question for someone who likes a little research.

 

[lootzyan]

If it is obvious, and after 2013 there was no combined brake system, then why does the description of the 2016 model say that it has Combined ABS?

I have never seen such a description for 2016 model, but I lost interest in this topic quite a long time ago, so I will not deny that it does not exist.

 

[TheIronWarrior]

It was my understanding that the middle pot on the front 3 pot calipers was only activated under emergency situations where the abs sensor detects slippage of the rear tire. I could be completely wrong in that, I remember reading up on this a couple years ago when I bought my 2013 dct abs bike that does have the 3 pot front caliper. If it works like that, the linked part serves no benefit unless the rear tire locks up and slides.

I don't think so for two reasons:
When stopped, applying only the rear brake seems to apply some front brake. I've "tested" this a few times bouncing the suspension at a stop and seeing which wheels were rolling.
You'd never be able to bleed the linked brake line if it only fed pressure when ABS activated.

From the 2012 owner's manual:
"Your motorcycle’s rear brake system is linked to the front brake. This means that operating the rear brake pedal applies the rear brake and a portion of the front brake. Operating the front brake lever applies only the front brake. For full braking effectiveness, operate both the lever and pedal together."

 

[TacomaJD]

I don't think so for two reasons:
When stopped, applying only the rear brake seems to apply some front brake. I've "tested" this a few times bouncing the suspension at a stop and seeing which wheels were rolling.
You'd never be able to bleed the linked brake line if it only fed pressure when ABS activated.

From the 2012 owner's manual:
"Your motorcycle’s rear brake system is linked to the front brake. This means that operating the rear brake pedal applies the rear brake and a portion of the front brake. Operating the front brake lever applies only the front brake. For full braking effectiveness, operate both the lever and pedal together."

Ahhh, learn something new everyday! Thanks for that info!

 

[16DCT]

2016 Honda NC700X DCT ABS Review | Accessible Adventure

From commuter duties to around town romps and weekend adventures, the 2016 Honda NC700X DCT ABS has you covered. Here's our review with full specs.

ultimatemotorcycling.com

The NC700X comes in two versions—a conventional six-speed manual transmission, or the automatic Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT) version that we tested (aka the NC700XD). It is well worth the extra $600 for the DCT, which includes ABS and linked braking.

That was the article I referenced that claims that the 2016 NC700XD is equipped with linked brakes. So that is not true then?