Riding attire?

MZ5

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2012
Messages
1,683
Reaction score
58
Points
48
Location
Arizona, USA
While I wholeheartedly agree with this statement I want to add a huge caution. Many leathers, especially on the modern lower price range riding are very thin. There are actually many types of leather including suede, nubuck, rough out, top grain, etc.
Surely you don't propose that there is LESS variation among motorcycle textiles than motorcycle leathers? In fact I think the (unintentional?) point of your post is that there's _more_ variation in textiles than leathers.
 

MZ5

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2012
Messages
1,683
Reaction score
58
Points
48
Location
Arizona, USA
The stats are quoted by MCRider (that's how I found it.)
New riders are most likely to have leg/foot injury from slow speed drops.
That's just the numbers, but it encouraged be to get something better to replace my Merrill Boots.
It's mainly the second half of the FortNine video that's problematic.

The general point of legs being most-commonly injured is, I hope, universally understood and accepted.

Here's Aussie data, which also says the same thing:
 

melensdad

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
935
Reaction score
305
Points
63
Location
usa
Surely you don't propose that there is LESS variation among motorcycle textiles than motorcycle leathers? In fact I think the (unintentional?) point of your post is that there's _more_ variation in textiles than leathers.
I actually am trying to point out that there is a reason to buy quality. Be it leather or textile.


I dunno, there have been more recent studies than 30 years ago but I don't have documentation at the ready.

Where good leather resists abrasion, synthetics melt from the friction after sufficient time which is in single digit seconds.
Again, the quality of the leather needs to be brought into question. There is a mimimim standard of 1.3mm thickness for motorcycle leather in CE testing.

Yes, synthetics to melt or abrade and do so in under 10 seconds. I believe quality leather tends to wear through in the 8 second range. High quality synthetic materials typically look for a 6 second or higher rating. Most crashes, BTW, happen at 35mph and below.

It should be noted that if we do crash at higher speeds we tend to do a combination of rolling and sliding from the reports I have seen and stories of survivors I've heard. We tend not to skid for long durations on one body point. Wear through is rarely reported with high quality gear, garment seam failure, is probably a bigger issue. \


This is a newer report, does not look at leather v textile but looks at moto gear -v- no gear, also looks at armor -v- simple pads -v- nothing --> https://www.georgeinstitute.org/sit...injury-or-just-the-weather-the-gear-study.pdf
Conclusions
This study demonstrates that motorcycle protective clothing is associated with a significantly reduced risk of injury in crashes, particularly when body armour is fitted. While the most substantial effect was observed for open wound injuries, crashed motorcyclists who were wearing motorcycle clothing were also significantly less likely to require admission to a hospital.
 

dduelin

Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
4,204
Reaction score
288
Points
83
Location
North FL USA
I remember the thoughtful words an ex law enforcement officer turned instructor at a riding class I took. “If you get yourself killed riding ATGATT your family plans your funeral closed casket ‘cuz you are torn up pretty bad. If you don’t wear the gear a 15 mph thump on the noggin leaves you real pretty, laying there looking like you are just taking a little nap.”
 

Bcsmith

Member
Joined
May 12, 2020
Messages
79
Reaction score
56
Points
18
Location
Canada
I remember the thoughtful words an ex law enforcement officer turned instructor at a riding class I took. “If you get yourself killed riding ATGATT your family plans your funeral closed casket ‘cuz you are torn up pretty bad. If you don’t wear the gear a 15 mph thump on the noggin leaves you real pretty, laying there looking like you are just taking a little nap.”
Oh my
 

Bcsmith

Member
Joined
May 12, 2020
Messages
79
Reaction score
56
Points
18
Location
Canada
The stats are quoted by MCRider (that's how I found it.)
New riders are most likely to have leg/foot injury from slow speed drops.
That's just the numbers, but it encouraged be to get something better to replace my Merrill Boots.

Lol Kevin sure made me laugh talking about the different styles of bikes and what riders typically wear to ride them
 

Janus

Active Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2018
Messages
193
Reaction score
139
Points
43
Location
Washington
I upgraded my kit over time. I started out halfGATT— boots gloves helmet and jacket. Jacket was Firstgear, a layered jacket. Claimed to be 3 season but it wasn't good early spring or late fall. It might have had armor in the elbows but padding on the back and shoulders.

Boots were Dianese boots which were mostly style over substances, but much more substantial than many other options.

Later I got Firstgear pants which, when it came time for testing, weren't waterproof at all. Despite the promise. They only had armor in the knee, and it would get uncomfortable after a couple hours.

When I got my NC, I got an Olympia jacket which was closer to the promise of 3-season capability. It had more armor and better venting. It didn't cover my waist as well and I did receive some.... compliments on my crack.

My next upgrade was Sidi Cobra Goretex boots. They almost look like street boots but have substantial protection, notably being certifiably weatherproof. I've gone through puddles that splashed all over and never got wet. I also once dropped the bike on my foot and I didn't really feel it. I knew where the bike was but nothing hurt. Other than my ego.

I got a Sedici (CyleGear store brand) Adventure jacket, which has good venting and ok armor, had to buy back armor though. It's not waterproof, despite the claim. Decent in the winter with several layers underneath.

I'm now rocking an Aerostitch R3 suit, with CE2 equivalent armor knees/hips/chest/elbow/shoulders/back. It's very comfortable, and tolerable up to about 85° while in motion. Soaking underlayers is a must above that temperature. Lord help the suited man stuck in traffic. I would rather complain than risk road rash and worse. I was very hesitant to splurge on something I've never put my hands on, let alone wear but once it arrived I knew I made the right choice. Getting kitted up only takes a couple minutes from top to bottom.

They also sewed a gusset to expand for my shoulder harness, which I wear when going out for camping or other long trips. I wish I had something on the bike instead, at which point the gusset will accommodate my belly.

Having ridden ATGATT for years, the few times I try to ride with minimal gear I feel naked, in a bad way. I don't like it. I don't recommend skipping gear. Exceptions granted to bikepoor individuals. It's the second best investment, after training.
 

hansonb4

Member
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
60
Reaction score
39
Points
18
Location
Fort Worth, TX
If we are talking injury protection, I think some of the best riding gear you can have, besides a helmet, gloves and a jacket with elbow pads, are panniers and to a lesser extent saddle bags. Nothing like the piece of mind knowing that if you go low-side, you have a nice little pocket protecting your foot, ankle, leg and hip on the low side if you end up sliding.
 

melensdad

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
935
Reaction score
305
Points
63
Location
usa
If we are talking injury protection, I think some of the best riding gear you can have, besides a helmet, gloves and a jacket with elbow pads, are panniers and to a lesser extent saddle bags. Nothing like the piece of mind knowing that if you go low-side, you have a nice little pocket protecting your foot, ankle, leg and hip on the low side if you end up sliding.
While I am a dedicated hard side case fan, the 'modern' thinking among "adventure" riders is that soft luggage is safer than hard cases. These off-road/trail riders will strongly argue that a statistically significant number of injuries occurs getting your foot stuck under a hard pannier. They seem to have experience to back them up ON TRIAL riding.

I do minimal wilderness trail riding, never ridden in the desert, and don't believethe gravel roads we have in my area compare to their style of riding so I can't intelligently comment from my lack of experience riding those types of paths or trails with any type of luggage. Trail/off-road riders have experience to back up their soft-luggage id safer choice. I don't know if that translates to street use.

I'm pretty much also convinced, that except for tip-overs at stops, where a hard pannier probably would help, we become separated from our bikes in most accidents, either being thrown from in an impact, or rolling and sliding apart from them if our wheels lose contact with the asphalt. There certainly are exceptions.
 

melensdad

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
935
Reaction score
305
Points
63
Location
usa
Soft bags might give some cushion in tip-overs.
Yes, if filled. Many with hard cases leave them on the bike all/most/much of the time. I don't frequently see people riding around with empty soft cases attached.

So in a tip-over, which I hope is not a common problem, to get any protection from a side case (hard or soft) we'd have to actually have it on the bike :)
 

hansonb4

Member
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
60
Reaction score
39
Points
18
Location
Fort Worth, TX
While I am a dedicated hard side case fan, the 'modern' thinking among "adventure" riders is that soft luggage is safer than hard cases. These off-road/trail riders will strongly argue that a statistically significant number of injuries occurs getting your foot stuck under a hard pannier. They seem to have experience to back them up ON TRIAL riding.

I do minimal wilderness trail riding, never ridden in the desert, and don't believethe gravel roads we have in my area compare to their style of riding so I can't intelligently comment from my lack of experience riding those types of paths or trails with any type of luggage. Trail/off-road riders have experience to back up their soft-luggage id safer choice. I don't know if that translates to street use.

I'm pretty much also convinced, that except for tip-overs at stops, where a hard pannier probably would help, we become separated from our bikes in most accidents, either being thrown from in an impact, or rolling and sliding apart from them if our wheels lose contact with the asphalt. There certainly are exceptions.
I agree with most of your comment. However, I do not really ride off road and yes, if you collide with someone, your not going to be sliding, you'll be tumbling after being thrown. But for me and I saw it with a buddy of mine last year on rain soaked surface, he slid. Luckily in the following YouTube clip of mine from my Bonneville, I was able to keep my bike up when me rear wheel locked up:
 

StratTuner

Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
3,494
Reaction score
43
Points
48
Location
California
Joe Rocket. I have their mesh jacket for the summer, then their textile jacket, black, with the high-viz yellow shoulders for cooler weather.
I've had a good experience with the following items for all sorts of weather. Two jackets work well, and I carry both with me all the time now.
(I'll put links to each item, but searching by name works.)

Jackets
Hot
: Tourmaster air intake 3.0
Cold: Tourmaster Transition 4

Pants
Hot
: Mesh Riding Pants Black with Removable CE Armor
Cold: Tourmast Overpants

It was 114 F here recently, rare for So. Cal, but I went out in Mesh coat with a long sleeve, cotton, shirt under it. I soaked the shirt in water and was fairly comfortable and cool as the air rushed over, evaporated the water, and took heat with it. The effect lasts for about 45 minutes, but you can always stop at a gas station / rest stop and soak the shirt again. ' Recommend that too!
 

melensdad

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
935
Reaction score
305
Points
63
Location
usa
I've had a good experience with the following items for all sorts of weather. Two jackets work well, and I carry both with me all the time now...

Jackets
Hot
: Tourmaster air intake 3.0
Cold: Tourmaster Transition 4

Pants
Hot
: Mesh Riding Pants Black with Removable CE Armor
Cold: Tourmast Overpants
Sound logic in your layering.

I frequently use my rain jacket as an over-layer for a bit of added warmth & wind protection over one of my armored riding jackets. I’ve done the same with a pair of waterproof hiking pants that I carry to wear over a pair of my armored moto-pants.

Recently purchased a dedicated pair of heavy armored moto-overpants for cold weather layering.
 

MZ5

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2012
Messages
1,683
Reaction score
58
Points
48
Location
Arizona, USA
There is a mimimim standard of 1.3mm thickness for motorcycle leather in CE testing.
I can't seem to find that requirement. Do you have a link to the new EN 17092 standard?

Yes, synthetics to melt or abrade and do so in under 10 seconds. I believe quality leather tends to wear through in the 8 second range. High quality synthetic materials typically look for a 6 second or higher rating.
I'm not sure what testing you refer to here.

This is only a report of something SATRA did, but it's about what I'd expect:

While not evidence per se, looking at crashed racing leathers vs crashed textiles generally shows the leathers to be in decent to excellent shape, whereas textiles are absolutely all over the map, but _generally_ quite torn up. It seems to me there's a performance-based reason nearly all CE Level 2-certified clothing under the old EN 13595 standard was leather.

Conclusions
This study demonstrates that motorcycle protective clothing is associated with a significantly reduced risk of injury in crashes, particularly when body armour is fitted. While the most substantial effect was observed for open wound injuries, crashed motorcyclists who were wearing motorcycle clothing were also significantly less likely to require admission to a hospital.
We certainly agree on that.
 

dduelin

Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
4,204
Reaction score
288
Points
83
Location
North FL USA
I've had a good experience with the following items for all sorts of weather. Two jackets work well, and I carry both with me all the time now.
(I'll put links to each item, but searching by name works.)

Jackets
Hot
: Tourmaster air intake 3.0
Cold: Tourmaster Transition 4

Pants
Hot
: Mesh Riding Pants Black with Removable CE Armor
Cold: Tourmast Overpants

It was 114 F here recently, rare for So. Cal, but I went out in Mesh coat with a long sleeve, cotton, shirt under it. I soaked the shirt in water and was fairly comfortable and cool as the air rushed over, evaporated the water, and took heat with it. The effect lasts for about 45 minutes, but you can always stop at a gas station / rest stop and soak the shirt again. ' Recommend that too!
The problem with cotton is how it soaks up and holds water against the skin in places where it can’t and doesn’t evaporate. A few hours and certainly on hot multiple day trips skin breaks down with rashes and in extreme cases, a painful monkey butt ruins the trip. A base layer of a wicking synthetic are less apt to cause heat rashes.
 

melensdad

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
935
Reaction score
305
Points
63
Location
usa
Do you have a link to the new EN 17092 standard?
I don't have a link to that standard.

Generally it makes sense to favor quality gear for protection. Here is an informative article on leather motorcycle gear. It stresses quality leather in multiple parts of the article, which reinforces the observations and points I made. It also talks about various types of leather, which are less durable, etc. Well worth a read. Anyone who buys a $250 leather moto-jacket and thinks it is even close to as protective as a quality leather jacket may be in for a rude surprise. You'd be safer in $250 textile jacket over a $250 leather jacket. https://motosafer.com/leather

Motoport clothing publishes a chart showing various weights of fabric verses "new competition" grade leather. Again, I'll stress the point that it's "new competition" grade leather not low priced trendy looking moto-jacket leather. https://www.motoport.com/the-save-your-hide-guide/

Another article from motosafer, this one about textile fabrics: https://motosafer.com/nylon/

webBikeWorld has a good article with links to many of the European standards: https://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-clothing-safety-standards/


Again, my point has consistently been that quality textiles will buy motorcyclists protection and that not all leather is the same, not all is protective, but quality leather is excellent. There are modern mesh fabrics that have greater wear resistance than modest leather, so we need to be careful about placing our trust is "leather" without specifying the grade, type and thickness of the leather (and, when it comes to products like Bonded Leather, making sure we just don't buy that stuff for moto gear).
 

MZ5

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2012
Messages
1,683
Reaction score
58
Points
48
Location
Arizona, USA
Well, I just posted the link to testing SATRA did on leather that was _not_ ‘competition’ stuff vs various textiles including Kevlar-lined jeans. It wasn’t close in terms of what’s most abrasion resistant.

I like Motoport gear, and I wear their pants. Nevertheless, they don’t do anything, or at least they don’t _disclose_ anything, resembling controlled testing. Theirs is nearly the only textile pants I would have much confidence in where abrasion resistance vs leather is concerned.

If my budget was $250 _just_ for (new) pants, I’d put the Joe Rocket race pants I just sold up against about any textile out there for that price, and I’d win at least 9 times out of 10.
 

CapeMan

Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
50
Reaction score
53
Points
18
Location
Prescott, AZ
I’m in kind of an unusual situation in that I sometimes need to deal with wide variations in temperature. In winter, it’s not that uncommon for me to leave the house (elev 5300 ft) in the morn with temps in the mid-30’s then ride down the hill to the low desert. By mid-day and 3000 to 4000 feet lower in elevation, I can be riding in 85* weather. Then later on that afternoon, it’s back up the hill into the chill.

So I head out with an electrically-heated jacket under my Motoport kevlar mesh gear, wearing winter gloves over OEM heated grips. Once down the hill, I switch to summer gloves and stick the jacket in the frunk then just reverse it all on the way home. A pretty flexible set-up that isn't at all bulky.

FWIW, I have a voltmeter installed so I can monitor electrical status. I don’t recall voltage readings at idle but riding along I’ve never seen less than about 14.1 to 14.2 volts with the jacket (a ventureheat.com liner that's supposed to pull 7 amps) and the OEM grips at high heat setting, aux lights at full output, and charging a cell phone (as GPS). Since I usually see about 14.4 volts without these loads and lead/acid batteries will happily float at 13+ volts, I conclude that the NC750X’s charging system will handle this load just fine.
 
Last edited:

LeeInMpls

Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2019
Messages
93
Reaction score
38
Points
18
Location
Minneapolis Minnesota USA
I agree with most of your comment. However, I do not really ride off road and yes, if you collide with someone, your not going to be sliding, you'll be tumbling after being thrown. But for me and I saw it with a buddy of mine last year on rain soaked surface, he slid. Luckily in the following YouTube clip of mine from my Bonneville, I was able to keep my bike up when me rear wheel locked up:
One advantage of shaft drive. Was it hard to untangle the jacket?
 
Top