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Turn signals and rear lights not working - RESOLVED!

FYI - the stock relay flasher has unswitched power running in to it. This enables the feature where the four-way flashers will stay on if you turn them on, then turn off and remove the key from the bike. (They will not turn on if switched on while the bike is off, if already off). So, the turn signals flashing with the bike completely off could point to grounding or flasher module, still.
Ahhh! That makes sense!
 
Thanks for responding DTMWAP. I’ll try this tomorrow.
Good suggestion and same offer for a free working relay as my LED flasher is coming next week. And very good point that it could be a combination of coincidental or incidental failures. Relay, and ground or tail assembly.

For the brake light, i would get a volt ohm meter. Don't be intimidated by not having used one. Super simple for what you are trying to accomplish here. I would test the brake first as it is the easiest. Just remove the pillion seat and the brake harness is there. Disconnect the harness.

Put the red probe in the Positive side of the voltmeter.
Put the black probe in the Negative side of the voltmeter.
Switch the meter to ohms Ω
Turn the bike on
Put the red probe in the middle terminal (i think that is tail light)
Put the black probe in the furthest left terminal (that is ground)
Look at the meter
If you are over 5 ohms you have no or a bad ground. If you are under 5 ohms you have a ground.

You can pick up a cheap but functional volt meter at Harbor Freight or Northern Tool for under 10 bucks. THey'll work just fine for what you maybe doing.
Thanks for staying with this, really appreciate it. Special thanks for the specificity of how to go about using the volt / ohm meter. I will get a meter and get into the bike this weekend as much as I can and let you know the results. I should know by then whether to say yes to your generous offers of the relay.

I have an update and would very much like any input on the way it might confirm or change your thinking. Let me say first that I am a fairly grounded guy, not prone to any kind of psychotic incidents:
So I get up at 6 AM today and go outside, still cool out. I’m standing in my driveway, and turn to look at the back of my car and motorcycle, about fifteen feet away. I’m just standing there wondering about the bike, and I swear this is true, the bike’s emergency flashers flash at me. I was still kind of waking up, so I wasn’t sure it happened, and then about 10 seconds later, it happened again. I run inside, get the key, come out and turn it to the on position. I push the turn signal switch to the RIGHT, and the left turn signal comes on and stays on (does not flash). I push it off and it goes off, I push the turn signal switch to the LEFT, and the RIGHT turn signal comes on and stays on (does not flash). I cycle through this a few more times. Feels like it’s trying to say hello and talk to me, and I can’t quite get the language. I go in, have coffee to get my head straight, come back out, and all is as it was before. The flashers don’t work under any condition, nor do the the turn signals work under any conditions (through the whole event, the rear or brake lights never come on, and as before the headlight is fine).
So does this lean you toward or away from any specific focus?
Again, thanks very much for your participation.
OK, I checked the rear connectors, and they are all clean and tight. Also gently pushing, pulling, wiggling the connectors and wires has no effect. Thanks.
Just to make it easier to diagnose, have you done any electrical mods on the bike recently? LED lights? Even non-related electrical mods?
HI Klap,
Haven't done any mods whatsoever.
I'm going to also send you an update that I sent to mzflorida, not sure if you can see it otherwise:
Thanks for staying with this, really appreciate it. Special thanks for the specificity of how to go about using the volt / ohm meter. I will get a meter and get into the bike this weekend as much as I can and let you know the results. I should know by then whether to say yes to your generous offers of the relay.

I have an update and would very much like any input on the way it might confirm or change your thinking. Let me say first that I am a fairly grounded guy, not prone to any kind of psychotic incidents:
So I get up at 6 AM today and go outside, still cool out. I’m standing in my driveway, and turn to look at the back of my car and motorcycle, about fifteen feet away. I’m just standing there wondering about the bike, and I swear this is true, the bike’s emergency flashers flash at me. I was still kind of waking up, so I wasn’t sure it happened, and then about 10 seconds later, it happened again. I run inside, get the key, come out and turn it to the on position. I push the turn signal switch to the RIGHT, and the left turn signal comes on and stays on (does not flash). I push it off and it goes off, I push the turn signal switch to the LEFT, and the RIGHT turn signal comes on and stays on (does not flash). I cycle through this a few more times. Feels like it’s trying to say hello and talk to me, and I can’t quite get the language. I go in, have coffee to get my head straight, come back out, and all is as it was before. The flashers don’t work under any condition, nor do the the turn signals work under any conditions (through the whole event, the rear or brake lights never come on, and as before the headlight is fine).
So does this lean you toward or away from any specific focus?
Again, thanks very much for your participation.
Could be a bad flasher relay module. That would explain the turn signal issues, but not the brake lights. The module can be found under the left-hand side plastics on the 2013 model. You can either take off the entire left side plastics (this is what the shop manual specifies), or you can take out the top plastic piece that would be removed as if you are replacing the air filter (which I think is easier).

Part number is 38301-MEW-921. Looks like they are ~$10-15 new with shipping, so probably best approach is to just swap it out. Or I have one that is all yours for free (I replaced it with an LED-compatible flasher module). Just PM me an address. I won't be able to ship out until next week, Wednesday or Thursday, as I am away on vacation right now.

RELAY, TURN SIGNAL (MITSUBA)
38301-MEW-921
Thanks for the response and generous offer, will get back to you about. If you get a chance, can you read the update that I gave to mzflorida, and see if it is meanigful to you?
 
I forgot something. Using your voltmeter, with the red prong in the tail light position on the connector, take the black lead and place it on a known good ground, like bare metal on the frame. If you get a good reading you’ll know that at least for the tail brake light it is a ground issue.
ok, here’s wht i’ve got so far.
I have disconnected the brake harness. There are three patio housings, a blue one on the left, an orange one on the right, no white one below them in the center. The white is the brake light, the other 2 are the turn signals. When I look inside a housing, there are three places where a small hole with a thin metal prong are. I’m assuming I can put the voltmeter prong in any of these three.
I’ve got the voltmeter switched to omhs, but there are a lot of values to switch it to on that side. When I use “20k” on the ohm side and put the red meter lead into the center white housing and the black lead into the upper left blue housing I get 1.25, when I put the meter to “200” on the ohm side and do the same procedure i get readings of 27 and 28, Am I doing this correctly?
 
ok, here’s wht i’ve got so far.
I have disconnected the brake harness. There are three patio housings, a blue one on the left, an orange one on the right, no white one below them in the center. The white is the brake light, the other 2 are the turn signals. When I look inside a housing, there are three places where a small hole with a thin metal prong are. I’m assuming I can put the voltmeter prong in any of these three.
I’ve got the voltmeter switched to omhs, but there are a lot of values to switch it to on that side. When I use “20k” on the ohm side and put the red meter lead into the center white housing and the black lead into the upper left blue housing I get 1.25, when I put the meter to “200” on the ohm side and do the same procedure i get readings of 27 and 28, Am I doing this correctly?
For checking continuity to ground with an ohmmeter, set the dial to the setting with the lowest number of ohms.
The 20k setting means you can measure resistance up to 20 000 ohms; way too high and it's the least sensitive to measuring very small resistance like you're looking for.
Use the 200 setting, as your readings will be MUCH more accurate for your purposes.
The readings of 27 and 28 ohms indicate the resistance of the filament in the brake light bulb, which is irrelevant to your search for a poor ground.
You are looking to measure the resistance of the actual ground wire.
That reading will tell you if you have an acceptable ground or not.
You can measure the ground wire resistance of each of the other bulbs in your lighting circuits as well.
The ground wires of all bulbs are generally the same colour, usually green or black.
 
For checking continuity to ground with an ohmmeter, set the dial to the setting with the lowest number of ohms.
The 20k setting means you can measure resistance up to 20 000 ohms; way too high and it's the least sensitive to measuring very small resistance like you're looking for.
Use the 200 setting, as your readings will be MUCH more accurate for your purposes.
The readings of 27 and 28 ohms indicate the resistance of the filament in the brake light bulb, which is irrelevant to your search for a poor ground.
You are looking to measure the resistance of the actual ground wire.
That reading will tell you if you have an acceptable ground or not.
You can measure the ground wire resistance of each of the other bulbs in your lighting circuits as well.
The ground wires of all bulbs are generally the same colour, usually green or black.

Thanks for taking the time to talk to me about the measuring process and the meter settings. All new to me.
So my rear harness seems to be functional. Not knowing what to do next, I did a little experimenting and want to know if you think this is relevant at all. I took all the fuses out and visually inspected them again, and before putting them back in, I set the meter to the low “200” setting, grounded the black lead to an place on the metal frame, and placed the red lead into each of the fuse holder slots. The first four slots each gave me the same reading of a little over 3 ohms. However when I put the red lead into the next two slots, the “turn/clock” and “fan” slots, they each gave a reading of 0. Have I found anything?
If not, in a simple way, s there something you might do next?
Much thanks again,
Phil
 
That helps. The horn also shares a 7.5A fuse with the tail lights and brake light so we can rule out a blown fuse. Give me a minute to study the diagram further and see if I can think of any other quick checks
 
I scrutinized the wiring diagram and have one other idea that's an easy check. There is a uncommon scenario where one filament of a dual filament bulb breaks and lays across the other filament sending power backwards onto a circuit causing weird things to happen. It acts a lot like a bad ground. I just looked at my 2012 X and it has (3) dual filament bulbs. FL turn, FR turn, and rear brake lamp. You mentioned in post #1 that you inspected the (4) turn signal lamps (so we can rule those out) but that the rear brake lamp is difficult to remove. If you have not inspected the rear brake lamp yet I found an easy check that does not require removing the bulb. I put a bright flashlight underneath the brake light housing shining up thru the clear license plate lens on the bottom and was able to see both filaments clearly. You might give that a quick check.
 
I scrutinized the wiring diagram and have one other idea that's an easy check. There is a uncommon scenario where one filament of a dual filament bulb breaks and lays across the other filament sending power backwards onto a circuit causing weird things to happen. It acts a lot like a bad ground. I just looked at my 2012 X and it has (3) dual filament bulbs. FL turn, FR turn, and rear brake lamp. You mentioned in post #1 that you inspected the (4) turn signal lamps (so we can rule those out) but that the rear brake lamp is difficult to remove. If you have not inspected the rear brake lamp yet I found an easy check that does not require removing the bulb. I put a bright flashlight underneath the brake light housing shining up thru the clear license plate lens on the bottom and was able to see both filaments clearly. You might give that a quick check.
Good idea. Could one also just disconnect the connector going to the tail/brake light (if there is a separate connector), then see if the turn signals begin behaving normally?
 
It's not an easy thing to get a picture of, but this is what you should see if looking in thru the brake light lens at the stock dual-filament bulb. If the upper filament looks broken or has a sag where it could contact the lower filament then remove the bulb and retest the turn signals/flashers again with the bulb out.

Good Luck, Saturday
 

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Yes. If the brake light bulb has a 3-pin connector (circled in red in the snip below) then unplugging it should have the same affect as removing the bulb and will not adversely impact the turn signals. Go with whichever method is easier.
 

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I'll add that I don't have a lot of confidence in the bulb being the problem but it's an easy check. Unfortunately, the wiring diagram I found online is not accurate, it shows both front turn signals as single filament bulbs with a separate "Position" lamp instead of the dual-filament lamps that I see on the bike. I tried to extrapolate how power would feed backwards if any of the (6) filaments in the (3) dual filament lamps touched it's neighbor but I'm at a loss without an accurate diagram. I'm seeing that tail light power could feed back into the turn signal switch and hazard switch, but it's foggy after that.
 
One last thought before I sign-off for the night. You could try removing the front right turn signal lamp that came on when the others didn't and retesting the turn signals and flashers. Maybe something else will happen to shed some more light on this mystery.

Good luck!
 
I took all the fuses out and visually inspected them again, and before putting them back in, I set the meter to the low “200” setting, grounded the black lead to an place on the metal frame, and placed the red lead into each of the fuse holder slots. The first four slots each gave me the same reading of a little over 3 ohms. However when I put the red lead into the next two slots, the “turn/clock” and “fan” slots, they each gave a reading of 0. Have I found anything?
If not, in a simple way, s there something you might do next?
Much thanks again,
Phil
You tried to measure the resistance of each circuit to ground.
The circuits that read 0 ohms make sense, showing there is continuity to ground, but those circuits are never supposed to be grounded.
Regarding the 3 ohm reading on the others, they may be connected to relays, but regardless those readings don't tell us anything about your ground connections being faulty.
I would say you need to have an electrical pro have a look at your bike.
I don't think your issue is going to be easily solved with your limited electrical knowledge and long distance diagnoses.
 
I have 1/2 a cup of coffee in me. I can walk the OP through specific and simple multi-meter checks using the wiring diagram but I can't confidently explain the un-commanded hazard flash that occurred Friday morning. The symptoms as initially described are usually attributed to someone miss-wiring a trailer harness, installing a single-filament, or the wrong dual filament bulb into a dual filament socket, or a bad ground. The initial goal is to distill a few simple checks that the OP can perform without using a multi-meter at all or replacing anything (unless spares are handy) to rule out some of the obvious items without having to chase any wires or replace any parts.

Focusing first on the brake light that doesn't work. This is a very simple circuit without any relays, just (2) switches and (1) lamp. It doesn't involve the combination meter, or any flashers/relays like the turn signals. The brake light shares a 7.5 amp fuse (Fuse #2) and a ground terminal at junction G with the horn. The OP tested the horn and stated that the horn works. This check indicates that both the brake light fuse and ground terminal are good. No multi-meter required.

Why then, does the brake light not work? since power and ground are believed good It could only be:
1. A burned out bulb (very likely)
2. A bad switch (unlikely that both front & rear switches failed)
3. A wiring fault (unlikely without an external cause)

If we focus on #1 above, that the brake light bulb is bad, then that opens up a scenario where the stop and tail filaments inside the bulb could be touching which may also impact the turn signals. I'd like to see a close visual inspection of this bulb, or even better the brake light bulb removed (or unplugged) before we chase any wires or replace any parts.

Good luck, Saturday.
 
Monday morning, you guys all rock. Thank you very much for taking the time to think through this issue with and for me.
Here’s where I am now.
The last thing to check on the back of the bike is the light. I did disconnect the lead to the brake light to see if it affected the turn signals or anything else. It did not.
I also tried shining a light up through the clear part of the brake lens, however,my eyes cannot be as good as yours, because I cannot definitively see the filaments.
I have never worked on the back of the bike before, but as I was removing the tailight housing to get at the bulb, I noticed that the very last allen screw holding the assembly on has been fairly fully stripped. I am better at working on that than electrics, and will do so on Tuesday.
Otherwise, I a little sadly tend to agree with big bird, that there is a structural limit in the exploration, and that is my electrical knowledge, so I think Ii will have to search for someone who is electrically fluent with motorcycle wiring (there is only one motorcycle shop in Boulder, seems crazy), and I will see if they can do electrics.
I can still replace the flasher on my own, other than that we may be at a logical end.
Again, Thanks so much for working into this with me, feel supported and resourced by all of you.
Onward, Phil
 
Good luck.
With the schematic from the service manual, any competent motorcycle tech will have your issue resolved quickly.
Some prodding with a multi-meter will reveal the culprit.
Is the shop in Boulder by any chance a Honda dealer, or if not can you get hold of that electrical schematic?
Maybe someone here has scanned it to pdf.
Worth asking.
 
Monday morning, you guys all rock. Thank you very much for taking the time to think through this issue with and for me.
Here’s where I am now.
The last thing to check on the back of the bike is the light. I did disconnect the lead to the brake light to see if it affected the turn signals or anything else. It did not.
I also tried shining a light up through the clear part of the brake lens, however,my eyes cannot be as good as yours, because I cannot definitively see the filaments.
I have never worked on the back of the bike before, but as I was removing the tailight housing to get at the bulb, I noticed that the very last allen screw holding the assembly on has been fairly fully stripped. I am better at working on that than electrics, and will do so on Tuesday.
Otherwise, I a little sadly tend to agree with big bird, that there is a structural limit in the exploration, and that is my electrical knowledge, so I think Ii will have to search for someone who is electrically fluent with motorcycle wiring (there is only one motorcycle shop in Boulder, seems crazy), and I will see if they can do electrics.
I can still replace the flasher on my own, other than that we may be at a logical end.
Again, Thanks so much for working into this with me, feel supported and resourced by all of you.
Onward, Phil
Off topic, but regarding your comment about only one motorcycle shop in Boulder (I assumed Colorado), I continue to find that interesting/odd. I have visited Boulder many times and although the bicycle density was good, I was surprised how very few motorcycles and scooters I saw in that town, given the climate, nearby mountains, and generally outdoor active population. Subarus were certainly popular, but motorized two wheelers not so much.

I mean no criticism, rather I’m just making an observation.
 
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