Question Waxed cotton abrasion

[Oldbear]

Which is why I’m frustrated that it’s being sold by protective gear manufacturers without some sort of disclaimer or comparison to their normal material.

They’d had them for several years now. I like the look, but they don’t draw me. I’ve fiddled with waxed cotton decades ago. Not my thing, though I can’t see one without picturing an old Turnip or Beezer. I love the old Britbikes, just don’t want to live with one..

 

[melensdad]

pretty much the deal. Cotton is cotton. Thick cotton works better than thin, waxed should be better than untreated, but all of it will disintegrate in the right condition. The armored gear will be better, but still, it’s cotton.

I agree with all your other points but I would question the highlighted portion.

Wax has a very low melt point, it is very pliable, and I simple don't see any functional way that it could or 'should be better' than an unwaxed garment. Wax is used to fill in the holes and gaps to help improved the windproofing and reduce water absorption. I don't see how it can make a garment stronger when it hits the asphalt in a tumble, and by stronger I mean very simply, more abrasion resistant.

As you noted: "it's cotton."

 

[TheIronWarrior]

I simple don't see any functional way that it could or 'should be better' than an unwaxed garment.

Maybe the wax makes the jacket slipperier so you glide down the road like a greased pig instead of shredding your jacket?

 

[Oldbear]

Maybe the wax makes the jacket slipperier so you glide down the road like a greased pig instead of shredding your jacket?

That‘s where I was coming from as well. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the waxed cotton would “slide” better than straight cotton. In any event, protection “should” be significantly less than offered by Cordura (or leather). Something like the Aerostich Falstaff or Jeremy with armor would be better than traditional waxed cotton only, but still…..I’ll stick with something a tad more modern.
I think I read where Aerostich uses something like 10 ounce denim-some jeans use 14 ounce…

 

[dduelin]

Maybe the wax makes the jacket slipperier so you glide down the road like a greased pig instead of shredding your jacket?

I get a chuckle sometimes out of these threads. While we riders are casting a critical eye on the clothing choices of other riders the soccer mom all wrapped in 5000 lbs of plastic and steel is looking out of her SUV at crazy motorcyclists wearing a few bits of cloth and plastic.

 

[Oldbear]

I get a chuckle sometimes out of these threads. While we riders are casting a critical eye on the clothing choices of other riders the soccer mom all wrapped in 5000 lbs of plastic and steel is looking out of her SUV at crazy motorcyclists wearing a few bits of cloth and plastic.

And THAT kind of says it all. Our gear will help if WE screw up, it if Bambi or Rover decide to play. it MAY help if someone else does. With that said I’ve never heard anyone who crashed say they wish they’d had LESS protective gear

 

[TheIronWarrior]

I get a chuckle sometimes out of these threads. While we riders are casting a critical eye on the clothing choices of other riders the soccer mom all wrapped in 5000 lbs of plastic and steel is looking out of her SUV at crazy motorcyclists wearing a few bits of cloth and plastic.

I will admit I'm guilty of the cardinal sin of Not-Always-ATG-Not-Always-ATT.
Most of my riding these days is commuting to and from work, as well as scooting between buildings (we have several hangars at the airport within a few km if each other).
To and from work (20 mins, nearly entirely highway and trunk roads), I always have helmet (obviously), gloves, and cordura jacket. Work boots make for decent protection, though steel-toes are not the best choice. Where I slack is the pants. Literally. I wear slacks. Definitely less protective than waxed cotton or even denim.
Between hangars, depending on weather, sometimes I'll just toss the helmet on and forgo the jacket and gloves all together.
Clearly as motorcyclists, we are not adverse to evaluating risks. One of the tasks I perform at work is risk assessments. For better or for worse, I have decided what is and is not within my own Acceptable Level of Safety range. I am aware if I go down (which would most likely be due to other motorists, wildlife, etc. and not necessarily "my" fault) that I'll peel most of the skin off my legs. I mitigate by driving extra defensively, but even that is never a sure thing.
I'll shake my head a the shirtless, short-wearing, flip-flopping dude on a litrebike, but I respect his choice to do so. I'll never give someone shit for always wearing the most protective gear money can buy.
We all tend to do what we believe is best for us for a wide variety of reasons. And, of course, the one thing we can all always agree on is Karen in her "SUV" (really just a tall sedan) should learn to live a little.

 

[MZ5]

I actually got responses back from Vanson and Aerostitch. Aerostitch said they have no test data between the 2 different fabrics...

I wonder what the basis for their statement (in the OP) that "you'd be surprised" is, if they've never generated any data on the topic?

For better or worse, cotton is NOT cotton, just like nylon is not nylon, and so forth. Fabric weight and weave matter. If you read through the development work for the Cambridge abrasion machine, you'll see that the "cotton canvas" (fabric details not described in the portion of the document I have) lasts very considerably longer than ~14.5oz cotton denim. See Woods, R. L., "Belt Abrader Impact Abrasion Testing of Leathers and Fabrics used in Motorcycle Riders' Clothing," Performance of Protective Clothing: Fifth Volume, ASTM STP 1237, James S. Johnson and S. Z. Mansdorf, Eds, ASTM, Philadelphia, 1996.

 

[Rabbit]

I wonder what the basis for their statement (in the OP) that "you'd be surprised" is, if they've never generated any data on the topic?

That’s my thought as well. Part of why I asked.

 

[melensdad]

. . . Where I slack is the pants. Literally. I wear slacks. Definitely less protective than waxed cotton or even denim. . .

Honestly I'm not sure if this is a factual statement.

Pretty sure it is actually untrue. Or at least practically untrue.

Cotton has virtually no abrasion resistance. Denim is cotton, it also has virtually no abrasion resistance. So cotton chinos, khakis, or jeans are essentially the same. I'm not sure if wool or any synthetic blend or cotton blend or wool blend dress or casual pants are going to actually be any worse or better.

Any of those are going to shred through upon impact with the ground and do so virtually instantly. So if you take an unplanned "off" and your knee hits asphalt, then your hip then your other hip before you bounce off into the grass you very likely are going to have 3 instant tears and 3 big spots of road rash. Go sliding in any of them and all will end with lots of instant road rash.

 

[TheIronWarrior]

Honestly I'm not sure if this is a factual statement.

Pretty sure it is actually untrue. Or at least practically untrue.

Cotton has virtually no abrasion resistance. Denim is cotton, it also has virtually no abrasion resistance. So cotton chinos, khakis, or jeans are essentially the same. I'm not sure if wool or any synthetic blend or cotton blend or wool blend dress or casual pants are going to actually be any worse or better.

Any of those are going to shred through upon impact with the ground and do so virtually instantly. So if you take an unplanned "off" and your knee hits asphalt, then your hip then your other hip before you bounce off into the grass you very likely are going to have 3 instant tears and 3 big spots of road rash. Go sliding in any of them and all will end with lots of instant road rash.

I was going mostly by fabric weight. All my "work pants" are considerably thinner than even my thinnest pair of jeans. But I agree, in terms of practicality, all of them offer negligible protection, so it would be fair to consider them essentially equivalent at practically zero. Whether you burn through it in 0.10 seconds or 0.11 seconds isn't going to matter much at all.

 

[melensdad]

I was going mostly by fabric weight. All my "work pants" are considerably thinner than even my thinnest pair of jeans. But I agree, in terms of practicality, all of them offer negligible protection, so it would be fair to consider them essentially equivalent at practically zero. Whether you burn through it in 0.10 seconds or 0.11 seconds isn't going to matter much at all.

Yes, this is was my point. But you managed to write it in 1 sentence while I rambled on for 2 paragraphs.

 

[TheIronWarrior]

Yes, this is was my point. But you managed to write it in 1 sentence while I rambled on for 2 paragraphs.

I'm an engineer, a lot of my job is taking a whole big report and explaining it to less technical-minded people in a few seconds (before they get bored of the math)

 

[Possummanj]

Oh come on guys-this is a ludicrous debate--it starts to be less fun when you armor up like you are going to ride MX or Moto GP---I have some gear-leather-textile -armored and not but I will be damned if I will put on special clothes every time I want to take a ride on a sunny afternoon--a waxed cotton jacket and jeans was good enough Steve McQueen-and his Triumph had miserable brakes and maybe 40HP-you don't need $200 boots to go riding-I wont wear tennis shoes generally but I have from time to time. And yes I have gone down a few times over the last 50+ years and been hit from behind by a car -wear whatever you want but worrying about the abrasion resistance of one fabric over another is silly

 

[Rabbit]

Oh come on guys-this is a ludicrous debate--it starts to be less fun when you armor up like you are going to ride MX or Moto GP---I have some gear-leather-textile -armored and not but I will be damned if I will put on special clothes every time I want to take a ride on a sunny afternoon--a waxed cotton jacket and jeans was good enough Steve McQueen-and his Triumph had miserable brakes and maybe 40HP-you don't need $200 boots to go riding-I wont wear tennis shoes generally but I have from time to time. And yes I have gone down a few times over the last 50+ years and been hit from behind by a car -wear whatever you want but worrying about the abrasion resistance of one fabric over another is silly

You may ride your ride and we shall ride ours. I appreciate the insight that has been offered so far. I find gearing up for every ride makes me both more comfortable and more confident in my riding.

 

[TheIronWarrior]

worrying about the abrasion resistance of one fabric over another is silly

I wouldn't call it silly. Some people care about the gear they wear, and evaluating the material is part of it. If you leave out important considerations, the conclusion of the evaluation is not necessarily a good one.
It would be like ignoring the material your helmet was made out of when deciding on a new one. Maybe you don't care, and that's fine, but some people are going to want to know if paying more for CF is worth it, or if a poly shell is really that much "worse" than fibreglass.

 

[melensdad]

Oh come on guys-this is a ludicrous debate--it starts to be less fun when you armor up like you are going to ride MX or Moto GP---I have some gear-leather-textile -armored and not but I will be damned if I will put on special clothes every time I want to take a ride on a sunny afternoon--a waxed cotton jacket and jeans was good enough Steve McQueen-and his Triumph had miserable brakes and maybe 40HP-you don't need $200 boots to go riding-I wont wear tennis shoes generally but I have from time to time. And yes I have gone down a few times over the last 50+ years and been hit from behind by a car -wear whatever you want but worrying about the abrasion resistance of one fabric over another is silly

To each his own.

That is the essence of RIDE YOUR RIDE.

I have friends who happily own zero moto gear and ride thousands of miles. I have friends who ride with some gear. Me, I am an all the gear all the time guy. I've got plenty of moto gear in different styles to suite different rides and different destinations. It is my choice. Others are free in this world to make their own choices.

But to suggest that this is a ludicrous debate is to, by default start out with the premise of an insult others who make rational choices for their lifestyles and their protection.

The underlying discussion here, although not explicitly mentioned, is can a non-protective material actually protect at all and should it even be marketed as protective moto gear?

 

[Rabbit]

The underlying discussion here, although not explicitly mentioned, is can a non-protective material actually protect at all and should it even be marketed as protective moto gear?

Yes, this.

 

[MZ5]

The underlying discussion here, although not explicitly mentioned, is can a non-protective material actually protect at all and should it even be marketed as protective moto gear?

I agree, and I think this question is what the ECE, or at least certain member countries, answered recently by saying that PPE must be certified, and that only PPE can be sold as at least certain types of motorcycle clothing (i.e. gloves in France). They were trying to get rid of useless fashion apparel masquerading as protective motorcycle clothing. More specifically, they were trying to stop people from marketing fashion wear as motorcycle clothing or PPE. Unfortunately, they were forced by the industry to massively downgrade most aspects of protection in the process, but that’s a parallel topic.

 

[Rabbit]

I agree, and I think this question is what the ECE, or at least certain member countries, answered recently by saying that PPE must be certified, and that only PPE can be sold as at least certain types of motorcycle clothing (i.e. gloves in France). They were trying to get rid of useless fashion apparel masquerading as protective motorcycle clothing. More specifically, they were trying to stop people from marketing fashion wear as motorcycle clothing or PPE. Unfortunately, they were forced by the industry to massively downgrade most aspects of protection in the process, but that’s a parallel topic.

Sounds like a good start to a parallel thread!!