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Question What if there's a gas shortage this winter?

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halfSpinDoctor

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How common is UL94 down there?
Yeah! UL94 has been approved since 2015, but there have been numerous hold ups with the FAA for the 100-octane version. Since a lot of the GA fleet requires 100 octane fuel due to higher compression engines, UL94 is of limited use.

Another company, GAMI, was just given FAA approval for a 100 octane unleaded fuel called G100.

Unleaded avgas is fairly common in the Midwest, but almost impossible to find in California or out West.

Doing some more reading, it seems like you need an STC to run UL94.
The fuel meets FAA specs for avgas, so any engine placarded to run aviation fuel with =< 94 octane rating can use it without an STC. I believe the STCs are for engines that do not meet the specs, but still can run it safely. My 1964 C172 has an O-300D, which is placarded for 80 octane, and happily runs on UL94.

That TEL is nasty stuff for modern engines! It's nasty enough on engines designed for it. I remember picking lead deposits off a full set of plugs off of a Piper twin when I was in highschool...
Haha yeah. I have had to pick out lead from the bottom plugs many times. Also had several stuck open exhaust valves from lead deposits in the valve guides. I run UL as much as I possibly can now.
 
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Oldbear

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I don’t think folks are going to find electric as the future fuel-it’s got to come from someplace and the infrastructure is barely supporting the grid now. Everybody wants electricity, but folks don’t seem to want to build new power plants so…go figure. I’m waiting for my compact cold fusion reactor, till then I’ll just stick with gas and diesel.
 

melensdad

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I don’t think folks are going to find electric as the future fuel-it’s got to come from someplace and the infrastructure is barely supporting the grid now. Everybody wants electricity, but folks don’t seem to want to build new power plants so…go figure. I’m waiting for my compact cold fusion reactor, till then I’ll just stick with gas and diesel.
Power plants and transmission lines will hamper the push to electric vehicles. A proposal in the UK would prevent homeowners from recharging their E.Vs during peak electricity demand times
 

LearnedButt

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I see EVs as a dead issue right now-- a toy, a status symbol, and little else. Granted, there are a few that JUST commute, but the average person wants to take the occasional holiday or road trip. We want the utility that gas gives us that we don't have from EVs right now.

The issue is that gas has a much higher energy density. I fill up in a few minutes and I'm good for another 400 miles. As far as packing energy into a small easily transportable substance, gas is currently the best tech, not to mention the already existing infrastructure. Hell, I don't even have time to pee while filling. With batteries, there's a comparatively long recharge time between discharges.

I really don't see EV becoming mainstream (barring government banning internal combustion) until we get graphene or graphene/Li batteries, which do have the rapid charge capability. Those are about 10 years down the road, but like fusion, it's always 10 years down the road every decade.
 

melensdad

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EV will be mandated. Other than their high cost, they are currently practical as 2nd cars for most people, even most rural dwellers. I know an urban dweller who has driven her Tesla from Chicago to Florida several times. Routes must be planned but Tesla has rapid chargers along the interstates.

e-motorcycles are a bigger challenge because range is limited to roughly 150-ish miles for the bigger/expensive units. More realistically cheaper commuter oriented city/urban motorcycles may be adopted more readily if/when they are available. Sondors Metacycle at $5000 is promising for the city and suburban commuter niche, but it is still a promise without delivery. I think anyone who can mass produce a sub $8000 e-commuter motorcycle in mass numbers, that has some storage space like the NCx frunk could sell a lot of units. If it can hit highway speeds and has a real world range of 75+ miles, is simple to use and maintain it will sell.
 
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davidc83

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Have any of you read the infrastructure bill which Congress is trying to get passed......It contains a road tax for miles driven/ridden (not including the fuel tax we already pay)....for approx every 11,000 miles driven per year, the road tax will be over $900.....told the wife need to get a wagon or buggy and train her horses to pull it.....go to an Amish way of life:
 

Oldbear

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Have any of you read the infrastructure bill which Congress is trying to get passed......It contains a road tax for miles driven/ridden (not including the fuel tax we already pay)....for approx every 11,000 miles driven per year, the road tax will be over $900.....told the wife need to get a wagon or buggy and train her horses to pull it.....go to an Amish way of life:
but, but,but everything is supposed to be free in a socialist paradise. I’m just an old country boy, but I know you cannot spend more than you take in every year and continue to get away with it. For a year, yeah, for two, maybe, beyond that you are sunk. Wonder how come the enlightened elite can’t figure that out? New Monetary Theory-money only has value because people think it does, therefor ya can print all you want! Uh, yeah…
 

TheIronWarrior

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I see EVs as a dead issue right now-- a toy, a status symbol, and little else. Granted, there are a few that JUST commute, but the average person wants to take the occasional holiday or road trip. We want the utility that gas gives us that we don't have from EVs right now.

The issue is that gas has a much higher energy density. I fill up in a few minutes and I'm good for another 400 miles. As far as packing energy into a small easily transportable substance, gas is currently the best tech, not to mention the already existing infrastructure. Hell, I don't even have time to pee while filling. With batteries, there's a comparatively long recharge time between discharges.

I really don't see EV becoming mainstream (barring government banning internal combustion) until we get graphene or graphene/Li batteries, which do have the rapid charge capability. Those are about 10 years down the road, but like fusion, it's always 10 years down the road every decade.
"Energy density" and "time to fill" are two very different parameters, but in both cases ICEV beats EV any day.
Energy density refers to the sheer size (both volume and weight) of an EV battery bank required to even mimic a fraction of a gas tank's range. Also consider that the weight of a full battery and an empty battery is nearly the same (E=MC^2, so there is technically a small change in mass between a full and empty battery) so even at "empty" you're lugging around the same mass, where an empty gas tank is significantly lighter than a full one.
Time to fill means that I can put 600km of fuel into my car faster than my wife can use the gas station restroom, where an EV might need an hour or more to put 300km of charge on.

However, I'm not seeing it as a dead issue. Where I live, over 60% of our electricity comes from coal. Even factoring in how "dirty: our electricity is, using typical values the CO2 emissions per km driving ("fuel" only) of an EV are about 70% of those from an ICEV. When all sources are taken together through the life cycle of a typical car in the North American market, the crossover point is at about 60k km on the odometer. That is to say, if you keep your car for more than 60k km, an EV will be better for the environment, considering all phases of life from construction to scrapping. In some markets, that number is as high as 120k km, but considering my almost 200k km VW is still kicking, it's safe to say that with current technologies, an EV is better for the environment (from a GHG standpoint) than an ICEV. The argument then boils down to are you willing to sacrifice range and fill time to benefit the environment. Some are willing, some are unwilling, and some are unable whether they are willing or not.
Also keep in mind that 1L fuel is roughly equivalent to 3kWh electricity when it comes to vehicle range. I pay 0.16CAD per kWh (* 3Le/kWh = 0.48CAD per Le) and 1.37CAD per L, so electricity is cheaper per km at about a third the cost.

I propose manufacturing EVs with exchangeable powerpacks (think like propane tank exchange) and producing electricity via nuclear, plus renewables where possible. Getting the infrastructure up and running would not be easy, but if you could replace a battery as fast as you could fill a gas tank and the electricity was "clean" then there are very few cases where an ICEV would be "better".
Except for "V8 goes BRRRRRRRRRR" and I fully support that opinion.
Now to make an EV with a 6 speed manual...
 

TNHoosier

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"Energy density" and "time to fill" are two very different parameters, but in both cases ICEV beats EV any day.
Energy density refers to the sheer size (both volume and weight) of an EV battery bank required to even mimic a fraction of a gas tank's range. Also consider that the weight of a full battery and an empty battery is nearly the same (E=MC^2, so there is technically a small change in mass between a full and empty battery) so even at "empty" you're lugging around the same mass, where an empty gas tank is significantly lighter than a full one.
Time to fill means that I can put 600km of fuel into my car faster than my wife can use the gas station restroom, where an EV might need an hour or more to put 300km of charge on.

However, I'm not seeing it as a dead issue. Where I live, over 60% of our electricity comes from coal. Even factoring in how "dirty: our electricity is, using typical values the CO2 emissions per km driving ("fuel" only) of an EV are about 70% of those from an ICEV. When all sources are taken together through the life cycle of a typical car in the North American market, the crossover point is at about 60k km on the odometer. That is to say, if you keep your car for more than 60k km, an EV will be better for the environment, considering all phases of life from construction to scrapping. In some markets, that number is as high as 120k km, but considering my almost 200k km VW is still kicking, it's safe to say that with current technologies, an EV is better for the environment (from a GHG standpoint) than an ICEV. The argument then boils down to are you willing to sacrifice range and fill time to benefit the environment. Some are willing, some are unwilling, and some are unable whether they are willing or not.
Also keep in mind that 1L fuel is roughly equivalent to 3kWh electricity when it comes to vehicle range. I pay 0.16CAD per kWh (* 3Le/kWh = 0.48CAD per Le) and 1.37CAD per L, so electricity is cheaper per km at about a third the cost.

I propose manufacturing EVs with exchangeable powerpacks (think like propane tank exchange) and producing electricity via nuclear, plus renewables where possible. Getting the infrastructure up and running would not be easy, but if you could replace a battery as fast as you could fill a gas tank and the electricity was "clean" then there are very few cases where an ICEV would be "better".
Except for "V8 goes BRRRRRRRRRR" and I fully support that opinion.
Now to make an EV with a 6 speed manual...
Using exchangeable battery packs would require standardization across all manufacturers and models to just come close to being practical. Car manufacturers cannot agree on where to locate the fuel fill spout. Battery packs are large and heavy which would probably require a 'service fee' to have people to make the swap. Then there is the storage of these battery packs which are very large.

I used to work for a major auto parts supplier that made battery packs. They are a material handling nightmare.
 

TheIronWarrior

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Using exchangeable battery packs would require standardization across all manufacturers and models to just come close to being practical. Car manufacturers cannot agree on where to locate the fuel fill spout. Battery packs are large and heavy which would probably require a 'service fee' to have people to make the swap. Then there is the storage of these battery packs which are very large.

I used to work for a major auto parts supplier that made battery packs. They are a material handling nightmare.
Agree on all points. Like I said, not an easy task, but I'm not seeing any other way to make EV surpass ICEV in "time to fill".
At least not until one of these is invented, and by then we may not even need roads:
4ef14c90-c950-4562-b1df-94b733e67ea6.jpg
 

melensdad

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Using exchangeable battery packs would require standardization across all manufacturers and models ...
There is a deal with Honda, Kawasaki, Piaggio Group and KTM/Husquvarna to standardize interchangeable batteries. Nothing has come to market from it yet, it was signed earlier this year. I believe that Yamaha, Kawasaki and Honda may signed a separate agreement? So it is a good bet all those companies will end up with 1 interchange battery standard. I know they standardized on a 10kg weight limit (22lbs) and specific sizes/connector locations. Photos have been posted in the moto news. Very likely larger road bikes would carry 2, 3 or maybe 4 batteries. Scooters 1 or 2.
 

Janus

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but, but,but everything is supposed to be free in a socialist paradise. I’m just an old country boy, but I know you cannot spend more than you take in every year and continue to get away with it. For a year, yeah, for two, maybe, beyond that you are sunk. Wonder how come the enlightened elite can’t figure that out? New Monetary Theory-money only has value because people think it does, therefor ya can print all you want! Uh, yeah…
The "mileage tax" is actually a study on how to potentially tax electric vehicles in a method similar to how ICE vehicles pay for road maintenance and upgrades through fuel taxes.

The USA has been doing MMT since at least 1971. As long as people keep believing the debts will be repaid, debt can be issued and the government can create as much money as it wants.

It never seems to be a worry when that fun money goes to Boeing, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, and so on. But when spending means safe and plentiful infrastructure for the average citizens, it suddenly turns war hawks into deficit hawks.

The average citizen is more connected to construction companies in the USA than multinational munitions conglomerates. Why not keep that money at home and give it back to the ones who build our country? I know I'd love good roads to ride on. Tired of all the decaying, potholed tarmac
 

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The "mileage tax" is actually a study on how to potentially tax electric vehicles in a method similar to how ICE vehicles pay for road maintenance and upgrades through fuel taxes.

The USA has been doing MMT since at least 1971. As long as people keep believing the debts will be repaid, debt can be issued and the government can create as much money as it wants.

It never seems to be a worry when that fun money goes to Boeing, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, and so on. But when spending means safe and plentiful infrastructure for the average citizens, it suddenly turns war hawks into deficit hawks.

The average citizen is more connected to construction companies in the USA than multinational munitions conglomerates. Why not keep that money at home and give it back to the ones who build our country? I know I'd love good roads to ride on. Tired of all the decaying, potholed tarmac
It just drives me nuts with the whole “Monopoly money” thing. items of true value hold value. A friend once pointed out that in 1890 you could buy a new Colt Single Action Army for a $20 gold piece—- you still can today
 

Janus

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$4.19 a gall.
And I thought the $3.14 I saw yesterday was bad. Normal here is $2.99.
Isnt California fun!?!?!! And I just guessing where you live by the price of gas!
I'm currently paying $4.09/gal for ethanol free gas up here in Washington :(
 

Janus

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It just drives me nuts with the whole “Monopoly money” thing. items of true value hold value. A friend once pointed out that in 1890 you could buy a new Colt Single Action Army for a $20 gold piece—- you still can today
$20 in 1890 is roughly $600 today. A new Colt Single Action Army looks to be $1800 new. Not sure what you mean.

On the other hand, the Honda C100 'Cub 50' in 1965 sold for $795, which is just shy of $7000 today. We can get a C125 'Super Cub' for about $3800. Adjusted for inflation, motorcycles have never been more affordable! And they're better than ever
 

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$20 in 1890 is roughly $600 today. A new Colt Single Action Army looks to be $1800 new. Not sure what you mean.

On the other hand, the Honda C100 'Cub 50' in 1965 sold for $795, which is just shy of $7000 today. We can get a C125 'Super Cub' for about $3800. Adjusted for inflation, motorcycles have never been more affordable! And they're better than ever
Check the price on a $20 Gold piece-you’ll find it’s about $1800. Dunno about the C100, but I bought a new ‘67 Yamaha YM-1 305 cc Cross Country for $825-ah, the “good old days”, course I was making 75 cents/hour
 

davidc83

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$20 in 1890 is roughly $600 today. A new Colt Single Action Army looks to be $1800 new. Not sure what you mean.

On the other hand, the Honda C100 'Cub 50' in 1965 sold for $795, which is just shy of $7000 today. We can get a C125 'Super Cub' for about $3800. Adjusted for inflation, motorcycles have never been more affordable! And they're better than ever
A $20 gold coin from 1890 today is worth from approx $1600 to $2800....so yep in the range of a new Colt Single Action Army today......I didnt look at prices of HD motorcycles in the 60s and 70s, but were they the same price or cost more than a typical 5 seat sedan in those days....I dont do the adjusted for inflation thing.....am I going to pay more for a motorcycle than I did for my Hyrbrid Prius or my wife's Hybrid Rav 4....nope, nada, not happening...and there are a few I would like to have.
 

mzflorida

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Have any of you read the infrastructure bill which Congress is trying to get passed......It contains a road tax for miles driven/ridden (not including the fuel tax we already pay)....for approx every 11,000 miles driven per year, the road tax will be over $900.....told the wife need to get a wagon or buggy and train her horses to pull it.....go to an Amish way of life:
Kind of. It's about $150M for a pilot program; which translated from DC speak into English as "Just letting you know, we're gonna stick it your hindside....soon...don't know when, but soon." Big problems with the mileage tax need to be overcome. First is privacy. How are they going to manage it without infringing on certain protected liberties? I am not being incendiary on that point, it is a legitimate legal concern. Second is the disparate application of the tax. Large urban areas see folks driving shorter distances, but the volume of traffic accelerates the decline of roads, so repairs and maintenance become unfunded. Rural areas tend to see vehicles driving further but have decreased traffic and roads require much fewer repairs and maintenance needs. So, the tax would be disproportionately applied to those who contribute least to the taxable burden intended to be relieved by the tax. Very close to the reasons we left England in the first place. Go figure...Washington taking the lions share from those who contribute the least to the burden and redistribute to those who contribute the most to the problems.
 
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