Love the bike! Just one concern - BRAKES (or lack thereof)

[Chris]

I find the brakes are very good. Front brake gives lots of stopping power and the rear doesn't cut in too hard, the worst thing is an overly sharp rear brake.

The linked front and rear brakes (on the CABS system bikes at least) is also pretty good on bad surfaces. Nice to be able to choose between them.

The first time I dropped a bike was because the front anchor was way too powerful - fine in the dry but the first time out in the wet I discovered just how snatchy it could be.

 

[RJ_CB450]

One big thing about brakes is the difference between good and good feeling brakes. Reliable and solid braking will be boring. Only need enough full lock braking to just be able to lock the front on ideal road surface. Any more braking powef is waste and cost. Massive double rotors is more unsprung weight and flywheel effect. Once the tire brakes loose, no more stopping power. Ergo, "performance" brakes might be good on R compounds on clean racetracks, but on the street you are just going to lock up easier.

 

[Mr_Krabs]

How about, No traffic, Paved road out in the country, use the rear brake mostly to break in the rear brake

and use both F&R together when i need them, or back in the city

How about no? That's a bad habit to get into, the front brake provides almost all the braking power in a panic stop. Just because you're not panic stopping doesn't mean use exclusively the rear brake. I don't know what it is with people but it seems a lot of people are afraid of the front brakes, this is especially true it seems with Harley riders and people who used to ride dirt bikes and then ride road. The front brakes on the NC700x are excellent in a panic stop because of the large diameter providing a lot of braking leverage. The asphalt is not dirt. Treat asphalt like dirt and eventually you'll crash or be forced to "lay it down" because of bad braking technique.

A lot of people don't realize this but also the reason for the very good panic stop performance is the low center of gravity. A bike with a high center of gravity is going to want to do a brakie very easily. The NC700x is very resistant to brakies because of the low center of gravity.

And as for dual discs, the real reason for dual discs isn't for more stopping power, a single disc brake provides more than enough power to stop a motorcycle in a minimum of distance. Once you're doing a brakie there no more force required and a single disc can brakie a motorcycle so long as there's enough pressure being applied. The reason for dual discs is fade resistance, with more overall surface area compared to brake pad area the brakes dissipate heat better so going down twistie mountains aggressively and the NC700x's brake limitations will show up sooner than say a GSXR because of single disc and lots of mass to stop on a continuous basis with less time to cool.

 

[RJ_CB450]

Good call. Never thought about reduced heat buildup. I use lots of engine braking so never thought of that.

 

[mike5100]

How about no? That's a bad habit to get into, the front brake provides almost all the braking power in a panic stop. Just because you're not panic stopping doesn't mean use exclusively the rear brake. I don't know what it is with people but it seems a lot of people are afraid of the front brakes, this is especially true it seems with Harley riders and people who used to ride dirt bikes and then ride road. The front brakes on the NC700x are excellent in a panic stop because of the large diameter providing a lot of braking leverage. The asphalt is not dirt. Treat asphalt like dirt and eventually you'll crash or be forced to "lay it down" because of bad braking technique.

A lot of people don't realize this but also the reason for the very good panic stop performance is the low center of gravity. A bike with a high center of gravity is going to want to do a brakie very easily. The NC700x is very resistant to brakies because of the low center of gravity.

And as for dual discs, the real reason for dual discs isn't for more stopping power, a single disc brake provides more than enough power to stop a motorcycle in a minimum of distance. Once you're doing a brakie there no more force required and a single disc can brakie a motorcycle so long as there's enough pressure being applied. The reason for dual discs is fade resistance, with more overall surface area compared to brake pad area the brakes dissipate heat better so going down twistie mountains aggressively and the NC700x's brake limitations will show up sooner than say a GSXR because of single disc and lots of mass to stop on a continuous basis with less time to cool.

Sensible stuff Mr Krabbs - I have been trying to make the same argument to Versys owners about a single disk for some time. There was a single disk (and small front tyre) on the ninja 250R my kids had until I swapped it for the NC700X and that huge reduction in unsprung weight at the front made a very sweet handling bike. If you race you need twin disks, if you ride normally the second one is just for show.
And your comments about just using the back brake are interesting. I went on an advanced riding course where they trained us to use just one brake - the front - they said unless you train yourself to be expert in the right degree of application of the back brake you will stamp on it in an emergency, you will lock it up, probably highside and you will be down the road. They said if you train yourself never to use the back excpet in car parks, then you will still get 95% of the braking power but your rear wheel will keep turning.
I successfully trained myself to do that .... but now I've got ABS and linked brakes I have to untrain myself
Mike

 

[dduelin]

The front brake is for stopping ............the back brake is for control and finesse in certain situations. Trail braking into corners to settle the suspension and slow speed under 10 mph stuff and the like.

The comment about always using the front brake is spot on. In an emergency our brains revert to muscle memory and will decide which brake to use without any upper brain involvment. We really don't have much consciously to do with the outcome. So train, train, train to always use the front brake and stay off the rear brake.

 

[Beemerphile]

...I went on an advanced riding course where they trained us to use just one brake - the front - they said unless you train yourself to be expert in the right degree of application of the back brake you will stamp on it in an emergency, you will lock it up, probably highside and you will be down the road. They said if you train yourself never to use the back excpet in car parks, then you will still get 95% of the braking power but your rear wheel will keep turning.
I successfully trained myself to do that .... but now I've got ABS and linked brakes I have to untrain myself
Mike

This is the way I was trained and what I still do. My rear brake is a hill-holder on pavement and otherwise an off-road device. If I can lift the rear wheel with the front brake (I can), then how much more front braking do I need, and how much braking assistance can the rear brake add? Modulating the rear brake to prevent lock-up is just something else to take away from your "$10 worth of concentration" in a crisis as Mr. Keith Code would say. If Keith was good enough to train my riding hero Wayne Rainey, I think he is good enough for me. To the ABS crowd, I'd say "good for you, you have solved that problem", but as a long-suffering Luddite, I prefer the simpler solution. I did beef up my front braking power by putting an ABS front caliper on my non-ABS bike and plumbing all three cylinders to the front lever, but that was because with my long distance riding the bike will often be called on to carry an expedition pack-out and I wanted an extra measure of braking power and fade resistance.

 

[DominusFL]

My other ride is a 2011 Victory Cross Roads. Almost twice as heavy, almost triple engine size, and almost twice as fat tires. SS brake lines, dual calipers, yada yada.

Brakes on both bikes feel totally different. The Victory "feels" like it stops faster and firmer, fatter tires probably add to that feel too. But that's just a feel. The tests clearly show the NC700X stops faster.

I can honesty say I feel equally safe and comfortable braking hard in either bike.

 

[mike5100]

..... must admit though at the weekend when I just pressed the NC's back brake I thought I must have oiled the disk or something. Went out on my other bike the next day and the back brake on its own was pretty good.
Mike

 

[westgl]

Hey Lee,

I went to the other thread and it just kind of died, there was no follow up as far as i could see.

Did the three pot ABS caliper work on a Non Abs bike?

See my post for installing an ABS front caliper on the non-ABS bike. It works very well. Doesn't help the wimpy rear, but I don't use the rear that much anyway. If I can lift the rear wheel off the ground with the front brake, I am not sure what it is going to add. I am fine with the rear being wimpy but not the front. By the way, this set-up gives as stronger front brake than the ABS version with the same caliper because all three pistons are available NOW from the front lever. With the ABS version, the center piston is run from the rear pedal through a delay valve. Also, the rear has a proportioning valve to bias the rear pedal effort between the front and rear brakes.

 

[Rideitsideways]

It refers to an earlier very disparaging comment about the bike in general early in this same thread - a direct quote, hence the " ". And yes in the original it did seem a bit racist. Guess I should be more careful about my idea of humor or sarcasm. NO intent to offend.

If I were harboring that sort of racist feeling the I wouldn't be buying a Japanese motor. If a US manufacturer could make a comparable product for even say 1.5x the price I would be riding that instead, not for racist reasons but because as an American it has some importance to me in these times to support American manufacturers. But let's face it, the motorcycle was invented in the USA but the Japanese are the ones who have really refined the motorcycle and they still arguably make the finest motorcycles and certainly the best value for the money of any nation. BMW makes a pretty good and reliable motor, but you can buy three comparable Japanese m/c for the same money. The Italians are fast, but I've never seen one go over about 30k miles without extensive overhaul. American - well, I've had a couple of Harleys and a Buell Blast and I have no desire to sit on another one, much less ride down the road on it. Kymco of Taiwan started as a licensed manufacturer of Honda until they advanced to the point of being set free by mutual agreement with Honda (an interesting story there) and they have some pretty well built and advanced stuff, but since the absolute cc limit in Taiwan is, I think 250cc you won't see much of their product in the US. By absolute limit I mean it is my understanding that it is illegal to possess or at least to operate on the roads in Taiwan a m/c over that limit.

An interesting read, however I always thought the Germans invented the motorcycle. Learn something new every day.

 

[DominusFL]

Americans invented the motorcycle with a steam engine. German's put a gas engine on it.

 

[mcbridedl]

This my
First time to the forum, and the first thing I read is about the rear brakes, now I know it isn't just me. I love everything about the bike except the rear brakes, and I think they are dangerous. I just don't know what to do about it.

 

[tew47]

Nothing wrong with the rear brakes. You should try riding a bike with all three or two brakes the same. The rear will lock up in a heart beat. I like the NCX brake like they are. Don't have to worry about locking the rear tire.

 

[ray]

Just e-brake ytd on NC when a car pulled over to my lane with no issues. Brakes are good enough. My other GSXR750 tends to lock up the rear wheel easily and indeed causes my heart to skip a few beats.

 

[DominusFL]

All this talk about locking up wheels. It is much better to lock up your rear wheel first before your front wheel. Much easier to recover a rear wheel lock than a front wheel lock. I know it is a bad habit, but I've self-taught myself that if I panic, I jam the rear brake first before I pull on the front brake. Gives me that 1/4 second to adjust my reaction appropriately. Now that I'm riding a bike with ABS, trying to re-adjust to just jam both equally.

 

[Beemerphile]

A locked front brake is controllable for about a second before the front wheel turns in. That is plenty of time to deal with it. Both wheels need to continue turning in order to have directional control. Panic stops are universally bad because "panic" works against good technique. Emergency stops are another thing entirely. If your technique for emergency stops is "jamming" either brake, then you need to seek some professional training before you hurt yourself. Control changes can be quick and extreme, but they need to always be smooth and progressive.

 

[Chris]

A locked front brake is controllable for about a second before the front wheel turns in. That is plenty of time to deal with it. Both wheels need to continue turning in order to have directional control. Panic stops are universally bad because "panic" works against good technique. Emergency stops are another thing entirely. If your technique for emergency stops is "jamming" either brake, then you need to seek some professional training before you hurt yourself. Control changes can be quick and extreme, but they need to always be smooth and progressive.

Well said Lee. Locking up the back wheel just means the back wheel will try to overtake the front wheel - if you're in anything other than a straight line when that happens it will get away from you faster than you can believe possible. It happened to me once when I nearly got wiped out by a truck pulling out in front of me as I was going into a left hander in the wet - to cut a long story short I found myself sliding along at 60mph on my arse analyzing what I'd just done wrong.

Good emergency braking is not panic braking, done right you have plenty of time to control it and if you do not control it properly you will most likely crash. Front brake is first brake - rear brake is for control and stability although it will also help a bit with stopping if you use it properly (which is with steady, controlled pressure).

 

[dduelin]

A very good drill for this is to practice locking the front wheel up at about 30 mph. You hear the sounds and the feel in a controlled drill. Momentary front wheel lock up /release is a good skill to develop. About the only way to do it on a bike with good front brakes is to squeeze so quickly the bike does not have time to transfer weight onto the front tire. After the weight transfers it is progressively more difficult to lock up the wheel - so the drill also teaches how gradually building braking pressure gives shorter stopping distances and is safer. This drill works on both ABS and non ABS bikes.

Regarding brake application .............. grabbing or jamming the brakes is not good practice. It does not give the bike time to transfer weight onto the front tire and develop maximum braking force. Squeeze the brake on, counting one -two -squeeze gradually harder after two. The presence of ABS does not change this.

 

[Phil X]

A locked front brake is controllable for about a second before the front wheel turns in. That is plenty of time to deal with it. Both wheels need to continue turning in order to have directional control. Panic stops are universally bad because "panic" works against good technique. Emergency stops are another thing entirely. If your technique for emergency stops is "jamming" either brake, then you need to seek some professional training before you hurt yourself. Control changes can be quick and extreme, but they need to always be smooth and progressive.

This applies only without ABS.
Here is an 2011 experts article for ABS-free emergency braking, based upon loads of measure:
Ratgeber: Richtig Bremsen, Teil 1 - ohne ABS - Motorradberatung - MOTORRAD online
(pls auto-translate accordingly)
They BTW recommend to always use rear brake a fraction of a second prior to front brake to optimize building up front tire friction. Which on the other hand means, using only front brake for emergency braking is outdated.
There is a progression interval of approx. 0.5sec you need to increase front brake pressure. Jamming brake without that progression phase, would make front wheel slip away immediately, since tire friction could not build up.

However, with the (Honda) ABS things change. Basically jam both brakes in case of emergency (only in case of riding a straight section. No way of jamming brakes when riding bends. Also take care about overturn sensors for certain types of bikes with higher COG.). This needs major rethinking of the braking techniques we are used to.
In my opinion this requires to introduce a mental fork: emergency or not? In case of low grip (wet, gravel) it tends to be an emergency situation more likely, but there is no risk of overturning at all. However it takes a surprising amount of brake pressure to get the Honda ABS actuated at all, in case you are not used to it. And the Honda ABS can handle it. This is, why I recommend to use the ABS every now and then to get prepared for what happens, how it feels and how much it will reduce braking distance. Never speaking in general, but for the NC I may repeat: if in doubt, try it out. In case you need it, it will make things easier, more efficient and safer. I believe there is a risk of not using the ABS in an optimal way if one is not prepared to use it in case. Even if there is a reflex of jamming brakes in an emergency, it may be too late in case this decision was not made right at the beginning of braking. Most of braking distance is lost at high speed. What is lost at higher speed can never get fixed up at slower speed. This is the problem about braking progression being too slow.

And to get back to the topic: if I stomp into my rear brake it will actuate ABS immediately. I do not see any weakness at my rear brake. However, there is enough of dosing space for anything in between. No issues at all.

Phil