Extreme Farkling: Series Regulator

[Beemerphile]

OK, this farkle is probably only of interest to engineers, gearheads, and inveterate tinkerers. If you are an "If It Isn't Broke, Don't Fix It" type, then please pardon the intrusion and spare yourself the rest of the post. There is no need to tell me that your regulator is working perfectly fine. I am sure that it is.

OK then, what and why? There are three things about the NC's regulator/rectifier set-up that I think can be made better...

1) The R/R is sandwiched between two covers in front of the rear wheel where there is no direct airflow. These things give off a good bit of heat. That is why they are completely covered in cooling fins. Most installation guidance for R/R's says to put them where they can get airflow. So, I think it can be put in a better place to aid its long-term reliability.

2) The connectors used on it are not environmentally shielded. Lots of problems develop in later life when the contacts become corroded and begin to cause local heating.

3) The stock R/R is a Shindengen FH014AA, which is a shunt style regulator. This means that the alternator runs at full output all the time and any excess current is simply shunted to ground. This subjects the alternator stator on a permanent magnet alternator to more stress than is necessary and it dumps the extra heat into the engine oil. On a number of bikes that historically have problems with stator failure, a popular solution is to install a series style R/R in place of the shunt R/R. The series R/R simply opens the alternator circuit when no more electricity is needed. The stator runs cooler, and on those bikes that like to kill stators, they apparently stop doing so.

My thesis is that a series regulator, properly spec'ed and mounted in the airflow with heavy wire and weather-proof connectors should improve the performance and long-term reliability of the entire charging system. When combined with the EarthX ETX36C battery, I think it should be front-to-end an optimized system based on the best currently available technology. In searching for the best 3-phase 30+ amp series R/R I discovered the following:

1) Shindengen makes a series regulator (the SH775) that is plug-and-play compatible with the FH014AA. Even the bolt holes are the same. Though this would be the easiest path and would probably work, it does not solve the problem of location and non-weatherproof connectors. Also, the SH775 is rated at 27 amps where the NC system is rated at 30 amps. I understand that Shindengen has higher amp-rated units under development. EDITED TO ADD (01/25/2016): The higher rated Shindengen regulator is now available. It is part number SH847 and is rated at 50 amps. Simple, but just not an ideal solution. PLEASE SEE POST #23 AND #25 FOR ADDITONAL INFORMATION IF YOU INTEND TO INSTALL THE SH775 IN THE STOCK LOCATION

2) The Compu-fire 55402 is a 40 amp 3-phase R/R and generally meets all of my specs. The construction with electrical leads coming out of the sealed chassis makes the use of weatherproof connectors possible. In researching the reputation of Compu-fire I found that even though they are pretty reliable, that they might be not so generous in the warranty area.

3) The Cycle Electrics CE605SB is the R/R I decided to go with. It is 50 amp rated and about twice the weight of the competition. Made in the good ole USA. Cycle Electrics made their business retrofitting Harley Davidson's trouble-prone regulators and they have earned a great reputation. I have the single phase 30 amp model of this R/R on my BMW R100RS running with an Euromotoelectric permanent magnet alternator. The BMW unit has performed perfectly. The voltage sits at 14.2 like the needle is painted on the voltmeter. Lights on, lights off, 1500 RPM or 5,000 RPM. No change. If this one does as well, I will be a happy camper.

First to extract the stocker. Both side shrouds have to come off for access. While I am at it, I thought I'd show where I chose to hide my spare clutch cable. If it goes "snap" in the middle of nowhere, I have a new one ready to go. I sealed both ends of it so that the internals stay clean...



Then the rear brake reservoir is removed and the rear fender liner is unbolted and moved out of the way. Peek-a-boo!



If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out...



I drilled the mounting holes in my rear luggage rack. The R/R will be mounted underneath the rack...



Next, Delphi Packard Weatherpack connectors were installed (a 3-conductor for the stator leads and a 2-conductor for battery and ground)..



The key to a good installation of open connectors is the right tool. Don't even attempt it without the right crimper...



Here is the finished item...



Here it is in its new home..



Next, the five wires were run through the inner fender area and down to where the R/R was originally located...



Then the connections were made to the bike wiring and everything was tucked back into place...



As a final touch, I replaced the Clearwater CVS LED charge indicator with the Sparkbright model...



So, I started it up and got the 14.2 volts I was looking for but I did not have time today for a test ride. I spent the evening selling my truck. Tomorrow I will give it some road time and see how it performs.

 

[MZ5]

Very good; thanks for posting!

Do I understand correctly that your thought is, that with the new, better-sealed R/R it does not need as good shielding as the stock unit, and so it is reasonable to mount it where rain and wet-road spray will get to it? I understand it's not going to be immersed, but the stock location seems to trade away airflow in favor of weather protection. Am I on track with your thought?

 

[L.B.S.]

Dude, that's awesome

Being a victim of a Honda stator design gone horribly wrong with my CX500Turbo and replacing 3 of them (and working on a fourth) and all the tales of woe with fellow F800ST owners and their stators burning up, was another amongst dozens of problems I was just too weary of contemplating, before finally binning my BMW for the NCX.

Alas, helpful knowledge and series style R/R's just was not available back in my Turbo years, and arrived too late to sway me on an ST ownership reprieve. Much ado was being made about SCR vs Mosfet, vs Serial, and so on. Shindengens from Yamaha R1's were popular, if I remember right.

I was sold on the reasoning for Serial rather than just a Mosfet upgrade, but left that behind when leaving the 800 world.

Much kudos to you for intrepidly tackling this subject with a preemptive strike and sharing the goods!

 

[drdubb]

I think you need to run an upgrade Clinic.

 

[turbodieseli4i6]

I'm happy to see the extreme farkling threads started again.
(Even if they cost me more money)
I have also been bit by the Honda stator issues on my old Goldwing. I will definitely be adding a clutch cable and getting the parts for the R/R relocation. Thanks again!

 

[Beemerphile]

Very good; thanks for posting!

Do I understand correctly that your thought is, that with the new, better-sealed R/R it does not need as good shielding as the stock unit, and so it is reasonable to mount it where rain and wet-road spray will get to it? I understand it's not going to be immersed, but the stock location seems to trade away airflow in favor of weather protection. Am I on track with your thought?

I think that you are. The CE unit and its connectors are, in fact, submersible. The stock location, though protected from junk kicked up by the tire, would get wet in a deep water crossing. Also, over the years normal muck will find it's way there. When I disassembled my BMW after the Alaska trip, I found muck as far up as I wanted to take off hidden covers. This is a shot from my BMW rebuild of a location that was MUCH more protected than the area where Honda put the R/R (notice the BMW electrical connector shown is weatherproof)...

 

[Beemerphile]

Alas, helpful knowledge and series style R/R's just was not available back in my Turbo years, and arrived too late to sway me on an ST ownership reprieve. Much ado was being made about SCR vs Mosfet, vs Serial, and so on. Shindengens from Yamaha R1's were popular, if I remember right.

Shindengen makes both SCR and MOSFET R/R's. For people who are suffering R/R failures and not stator failures, exchanging for a MOSFET R/R like the Shindengen FH020AA would help. But, it would do nothing for stator failures as it is, though MOSFET, still a shunt type regulator. MOSFET's run cooler and regulate better than SCR designs. For some reason (another minus) Shindengen decided to build it's new SH775 series R/R with SCR instead of MOSFET technology. Beats me why.

 

[Beemerphile]

I will definitely be adding a clutch cable and getting the parts for the R/R relocation.

There are lots of options for where to locate it. I happened to have the handy area under the Caribou rear rack where in a normal look-over, it would not be seen. However, lots of bikes have them located in places where they are visible and they don't really call attention to themselves. Here is where I located the much smaller 30 amp single phase (CE300) R/R on my R100RS...








One thing about the CE605 though is that it is BIG compared to most motorcycle R/R's. Partly because it is 50 amp rated and also I think it is just nicely overbuilt in terms of heat exchange surface and such. The Compu-fire 55402 is smaller and lighter if that matters to your choice of locations and I think it would be quite workable. I had considered mounting it on a plate off of the right side sidecase mount, or on a plate behind one of the sidecases, but then just went with the location I chose. I guess I held that thing up all over the bike looking for the best location. It was too big to tuck into some protected recesses within the Givi crash bars. Had it fit, I might have put it there. But I am satisfied with the location. There is a nice path for the wires from the tail section, under the tank and into the protected area between the tank and inner rear fender. In fact, the Honda harness for the taillights goes through this area after it drops off the connections for the R/R. Getting out of the taillight housing would require a bit of imagineering, but I had already relegated my stock taillight to the dustbin.

 

[showkey]

+ 2 on stator failures are a different charging problem. Many stators failed was caused by melting and shorting of the connector :



Poor connection, high resistance and large current flow were the primary causes of the connector melting.

Beemer choose quality connectors In his mod with the correct crimp........do not short cut the connectors.

There were other stators that shorted internally like the Cx500 turbo that tended to "cooked the stators in hot oil".

 

[Beemerphile]

Poor connection, high resistance and large current flow were the primary causes of the connector melting.

Nice picture of the evidence. There are no fuses in the stator circuit, so if you get a ground or short, it just proceeds to meltdown. The NC had a nice protected wiring plenum, but on installations (like my R100RS) where there is no protected route, I normally sheath the stator wires for physical protection. The stator wires are within the braided sheath in this harness...



Over my 45 years of riding motorcycles and stopping to help people on the road, I would say the vast majority of issues that I have seen resulted from wire abrasion or connector issues. Sometimes specific bikes have areas where harness abrasion shows up, but most of them were owner installed circuits which failed - sometimes burning the factory harness in the process. Bushings are needed if you pass through metal. Connectors matter. Workmanship (technique) matters. Routing matters. Circuit protection (fuses, breakers) matter.

 

[Fuzzy]

Beemer,
Is this farkle at all related to the battery drain problem you had in the past?

 

[Therapy]

I think you need to run an upgrade Clinic.

I vote to have a list of upgrades and do one every two to three days. We can meet at his place and camp out while doing the work. Group buy parts and such.

 

[Beemerphile]

Beemer,
Is this farkle at all related to the battery drain problem you had in the past?

I never located the source of that problem. After I had to abort a Labrador crossing because of it, I replaced the R/R with a new stock unit (and battery) and the problem hasn't recurred since. Not much assurance though, because it seemed to hit only once in a while - maybe once a year. But I guess it is related in that I wanted a clean sweep best-in-class charging system from the battery out and I think this is it. The only other possible improvement I can think of would be to rewind the stator with lower resistance high purity magnet wire. I will do that if I ever lose a stator rather than buy a factory replacement. So the jury is out. Without a "smoking gun", how do you know if an intermittent problem is solved?

You know, I am not really recommending any of this to others. I am just explaining what I have done and why. Some folks may think that some of it has merit for their own situations, or they might just pick up a technical tidbit about how this or that works. For others it probably only confirms for them that I am strange.

 

[Beemerphile]

Just back from a good road test. The voltage regulates very well. 14.06 volts at idle and it maxes out at about 14.2 volts around 2000 and stays there at higher revs. I am very satisfied with the voltage levels and regulation. When I returned after about 50 miles the regulator was mildly warm but not hot.

So, I am declaring success unless it blows up. If it does, I will sheepishly but promptly admit to my failure. Right now I'm a happy camper.

 

[bamamate]

You're an Auburn fan so the strange is self-evident but I always learn something from your extreme farkling.

 

[Beemerphile]

You're an Auburn fan so the strange is self-evident.

Ah ams whats I ams (an' that's alls whats I ams)...

[video=youtube;_O-sJpZZ0gk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O-sJpZZ0gk[/video]

 

[Fuzzy]

Ah ams whats ah ams (an' that's alls whats I ams)...

[video=youtube;_O-sJpZZ0gk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O-sJpZZ0gk[/video]

Air Force turns their falcon lose for a circle of the stadium prior to home games. When we played them in '73 we let lose a bunch of pigeons at the same time. Instincts won out over training. They eventually got him back around half time. To top it off Navy won the game Air Force was highly favored to win.

 

[Beemerphile]

Air Force turns their falcon lose for a circle of the stadium prior to home games. When we played them in '73 we let lose a bunch of pigeons at the same time. Instincts won out over training. They eventually got him back around half time. To top it off Navy won the game Air Force was highly favored to win.

That's not nice Fuzzy. Roger Staubach would disapprove. On eagle flights, my 'Bama friends like to point to the time that Tiger's blonde-headed successor Spirit flew into the window of the box seats. I always suggest they toss their elephant off of the top deck of Bryant-Denny and see how he does.

[video=youtube;YgF6UJ5UgUs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgF6UJ5UgUs[/video]

 

[bamamate]

Didn't they rename Spirit to "Wrong Way Bo"?

 

[Therapy]

Off topic but hilarious how football fans go at it all the time.

Sort of reminds me of Harley people.