Oil Change

[JohnE700x]

Just a quick fact for all those who don't know. The oil drain plug washer is actually a "crush" washer. If you turn it sideways you can see the difference in the metals used. It is a "one time use" washer. If you do not change it out your are putting a steel bolt up against an aluminum case. I have seen way too many drain bolts pull the threads out of a case over the years.

 

[L.B.S.]

If you turn it sideways you can see the difference in the metals used. It is a "one time use" washer.

? I've never seen a stratified alloy or laminated bimetal crush washer in a motorcycle application, in all my life. Are you sure you are not just seeing the rough line sometimes left in evidence after a washer is punched out of the sheet? This can happen if the punch die is wearing out, even though it's tool steel and it's only going through copper/brass/aluminum.

I would imagine the oil drain plug thread failures are usually the result of someone completely lacking any feel for torque, and there are many more instances of fasteners on their machines that do not require crush washers, but have stripped threads.

That reminds me. I will go out and pat my 22 year old Suzuki, with a gazillion torque wrench-less oil changes, with it's original OEM crush washer still happily in use...

 

[Beemerphile]

Aw geez, not this again???

 

[Old Can Ride]

Beemerphile, I am glad to see that the trip has you back to normal. Now, I have to get away on the bike so as I can return to something that resembles normal.

 

[Beemerphile]

Beemerphile, I am glad to see that the trip has you back to normal. Now, I have to get away on the bike so as I can return to something that resembles normal.

I find "normal" too confining. I try to settle for "typical".

 

[dzknmd]

https://www.belmetric.com/ga12x18-aluminum-gasket-p-537.html?zenid=i1ff0gk98t7qltjt2vcam4rqt7&cPath=11_92[/QUOTE]

Beemerphile, you cost me money every time I log on. I've got the Grease Ninja, 11 bottles of Ride-on on order (at half price) and now this.

 

[dduelin]

Just a quick fact for all those who don't know. The oil drain plug washer is actually a "crush" washer. If you turn it sideways you can see the difference in the metals used. It is a "one time use" washer. If you do not change it out your are putting a steel bolt up against an aluminum case. I have seen way too many drain bolts pull the threads out of a case over the years.

So are you saying 18 to 22 ft lbs of torque flattens a 2 mm thick aluminum washer into the thin air of nothingness so the steel bolt bears against the aluminum oil sump?

Myself, I just flip them over and reuse them being careful not to over torque it the 1st or 20th reuse. Your experience might vary but I've never stripped a drain bolt in 40+ years of Hondas. Once in a while I will replace one if it becomes conical or fused to the drain bolt.

 

[Beemerphile]

Here's the short skinny... If it seals using the specified torque, you got away with it. If you had to over-torque it to get it to seal, please don't sell me your motorcycle. So many people push the limits on this to save negligible money. Many more trust their "feel" more than they should. This is the transmission drain washer from a 1976 BMW I recently bought. I wonder if it is the original $0.19 crush washer? I wonder how much torque he used? The threads unfortunately feel a bit grabby. Too late to do it right on this one.

 

[L.B.S.]

So are you saying 18 to 22 ft lbs of torque flattens a 2 mm thick aluminum washer into the thin air of nothingness so the steel bolt bears against the aluminum oil sump?

Myself, I just flip them over and reuse them being careful not to over torque it the 1st or 20th reuse. Your experience might vary but I've never stripped a drain bolt in 40+ years of Hondas. Once in a while I will replace one if it becomes conical or fused to the drain bolt.

+1

My beef is never with not doing it because you "don't have to", or because I think I'm saving money, or because I think I know it all. On the contrary, I think you *do* have to swap out such things like crush washers, you *do* have to use torque wrenches and follow strict protocols when conditions/circumstances dictate it, I spend money like water on the most frivolous things, and I most assuredly do not know it all.

My hackles just go up at following drone-like, doing what I'm told to do, as if there is only one right way in the universe to do something, when I know it doesn't necessarily have to be done that way. Especially when it's being said in a black and white manner, with super matter of fact method of condescending assurance. (not meaning you johnE700x btw, just a generalization)

 

[L.B.S.]

View attachment 7869

I'm a 1963 model, and I'm positive the crush washers in my lower back look just like that, and should have been swapped out for new ones a loooong time ago....

 

[MZ5]

I'm like you, L.B.S., at least a lot of the time: I like reinventing the wheel as a product of my obstinate contrariness.


Seriously, those same things get my hackles up. And yet... Lots of times I end up doing almost exactly the thing that bothered me to hear/read/be told, once I satisfy myself that the reason(s) behind the procedure are good (as opposed to falsehoods or pure nonsense repeated until they're accepted as fact).

I make my existence unnecessarily difficult sometimes.

 

[JohnE700x]

As it was explained to me---the crush washer is designed to seal when proper torque is applied once torque is applied the softer metal is no longer useable. The bolt will not hit anything but if a new washer isn't used the bolt will start to pull on the threads in the case. As I am no expert by any means, I have seen cases/oil pans stripped out. For the price of the washer I change mine all the time. Look at a genuine Honda washer part number 94109-12000. You can see the different metals.

 

[n30r3l0ad3d]

While I do appreciate some criticism, I would like to offer some of my own.

I've done enough oil changes on both motorcycles and vehicles to say "I know what I am doing". Looking at the picture of your crush ring on the right, it was way over tightened. I have always reused my crush rings without incident. Only if one were to look like the one in this thread that is mangled beyond belief, would I change one out. And I can tell you after I changed my oil on my NC, 300 miles later mine is fine and NOT leaking whatsoever. If you want to change yours out, then change it out.

I would also like to state that in my video, I never once said that this is the way you must do it. I put this up here to help those who are not so mechanically inclined out, and maybe save someone a few bucks on a dealer service. One of the benefits of the NC, is it's extremely easy to work on. If you want to do things differently, take some time to grab a camera and make a video the way you would do it, and not be so critical of others.

 

[dduelin]

Myth Busters

As it was explained to me---the crush washer is designed to seal when proper torque is applied once torque is applied the softer metal is no longer useable. The bolt will not hit anything but if a new washer isn't used the bolt will start to pull on the threads in the case. As I am no expert by any means, I have seen cases/oil pans stripped out. For the price of the washer I change mine all the time. Look at a genuine Honda washer part number 94109-12000. You can see the different metals.

What you are seeing when you look at the edge of #94109-12000 is the manufacturing marks left from the punch-out process. The washer is itself is homogenous aluminum all of one piece. I took this one and took a picture before I filed the marks away and a picture after. It's clear the washer is one piece not two different metals.





I agree it is best practice to replace the washer every time but if one pays attention to proper torque force it's not necessary providing the washer remains in serviceable condition. Everyone should do what they are most comfortable with.

 

[Beemerphile]

I put this up here to help those who are not so mechanically inclined out'

If that is indeed your purpose, and it is the only audience who would need it, then it is even more important to describe a fail-proof method. I showed what happens when "feel" and "re-use" fails just to show that it does happen. You cannot show where "a new washer and 22 ft.-lbs." fails. This guy did not intentionally damage the bike. However, you cannot impart your judgement and feel of a wrench to a beginner. So when you tell him "good and snug" or "a good pull", or whatever, what does it mean? Was the last thing he worked on a D6 Cat or a bicycle? Does he have one month of mechanical experience or 20 years? When you tell someone "a new washer and 22 ft.-lbs." you have imparted transferrable information that works the same for beginner and expert; for Samson or Casper Milquetoast. If he one day gets so good that he can "feel the wrench" (in an aluminum casting that he has never worked with before) then he will have graduated to your level. But remember that you are making the film to help him do something he has never done before, not to celebrate your own command over the subject matter. Regardless of whether an experienced mechanic can get away with it, not using a torque wrench is a common beginner mistake. A common beginner mistake when using a torque wrench on a metric machine is mistaking the newton-meter torque to be foot-pounds. The drain bolt torque is listed as 30 N-m. If you put 30 ft-lbs. on it you could do damage. So I think suggesting the use of a torque wrench and cautioning on the difference between the scales is important information for a beginner to have an assured successful outcome.

If you want to do things differently, take some time to grab a camera and make a video the way you would do it, and not be so critical of others.

I don't do videos. I have done several instructive presentations with still shots. Feel free to critique them. They are not perfect and many have pointed out errors or offered improvements. Even if I counter-argue their points, my work is made better by their input and critique. People can read it all and decide what to believe and what course to take on their own bike. I have applauded your presentation and I think it is very good but I don't intend to get into dueling videos. I am only suggesting that you do a greater service to this diverse community to impart tested transferrable methods. There is an entire field of practice called "method transfer" which has as its objective to assure that the same successful result is achieved by the new person/location. A correctly described method will work the same for everyone. A tested method will be successful for everyone. Many here are short on experience but eager to learn. My only objective in this critique is their success in working on their bikes, should they choose to undertake it.

 

[turbodieseli4i6]

#1-Thank you for doing this video!!
This will help a lot of DYS people out there and show them that its not that hard. These videos can and will save a lot of money for a bunch of people.
With that said, I agree with Beemer about the torque specs. (Even though I don't always use a Torque wrench) You can't teach feel!
I've pissed a lot of guys off when I buy new tires, because I watch them and make them use a torque wrench. If they don't know the torque specs, I'll tell them.
Great video and keep them up. I suck at that kind of stuff.!

 

[turbodieseli4i6]

One of he reasons I decided to add to this thread was because having to help a 47 Y/O guy out. I sold him my GL1200 and after he changed the oil, he almost stripped the threads out. I came by and cleaned the threads up enough to get by and all went well. I then had him get an adapter so I wouldn't have to tap it to another size.
Like I said before, You have a talent. Just make the videos to help people with absolutely no experience. Then when a guy with CRS (me) watches it, it will help them remember.
I can't wait for your valve job video by the way.

 

[n30r3l0ad3d]

I will be doing that chain maintenance video, a rear hugger install and review, as well as a full walk around of my NC700x this weekend. I just wrapped up my garage overhaul, now I am hunting down a set of LED lighting for my work bench area. I am thinking that if I get bored towards the end of the riding season, I will go ahead and tackle the valve adjustment. Not sure if you could hear in my video, but after about the 200 mile mark my NC developed an ever so slight ticking. It became more noticeable last night in the 41 degree ride home.

EDIT: I called up the service department from where I bought my NC. They told me the slight tick I was hearing is normal, and said I shouldn't do the valve adjustment too early. I showed him my video, and he said not to worry unless it's an obnoxious ticking.

 

[L.B.S.]

Thanks, Lee. Ever the voice of reason.

 

[MZ5]

If that is indeed your purpose, and it is the only audience who would need it, then it is even more important to describe a fail-proof method...
...So when you tell him "good and snug" or "a good pull", or whatever, what does it mean? Was the last thing he worked on a D6 Cat or a bicycle?...

At my previous work unit, I had a number of PhDs working for me. I have a BS degree, so they have a whole lot more schooling than I. We were all very close, and worked extremely well as a team. Part of our closeness was a jabbing back and forth. One of my favorite jabs if/when one of them got to being a little 'particular' for my taste about a procedure was that all this 'only change one thing at a time, write down EVERY POSSIBLE aspect of EVERY MINUTE detail of what you're doing, and ISO-9000-style codify it' mumbo-jumbo isn't because doing things that way is 'better,' but because that way even the monkeys could do it. Now, I certainly didn't think they nor any of our people were monkeys, and they knew that, but frankly the general point held up. We needed to make things so specific and so detailed that someone brand-new and utterly inexperienced with what we were doing could at least come in and not screw things up too badly.

The alternative is weeks- or months- or years-long apprenticeships and doing things by touch/feel, sight, taste, or whatever. In fact, that way is also extremely effective and extremely repeatable, and is normally much faster once someone knows how to do something (we employed various 'references' to which they would return to 'calibrate' their eyes, etc.). In fact, we used this method in certain operations in our lab. However, it's very difficult to describe what one is 'looking' or 'feeling' for in a purely-written-words way, so training has to be hands-on, and that's a huge time sink.

Anyway, I just really enjoy this video, and the follow-on discussion and critiques, because I have natural tendencies, professional requirements, and even personal interests that pull me in both directions at once.