ABS Breaking

[Old Can Ride]

Some smart attorney must have gone after Suzuki for the ABS breaking.

"Depending on road surface conditions, such as wet, loose, or uneven roads, braking distance for an ABS-equipped vehicle may be longer than for a vehicle not equipped with ABS. ABS cannot prevent wheel skidding caused by braking while cornering. Please drive carefully and do not overly rely on ABS."

New Vstrom ad now have this disclaimer. There is a reason BMW suggest always turning off the ABS when in the dirt!

However, I believe as a general rule of thumb, new riders are most times better off with ABS on the paved roadway, because of the over reaction factor.

 

[Fuzzy]

And most riders who consider themselves experienced are under the false assumption that they are not safer with ABS. As to off road with ABS on an NC700, just ask HondaBikePro. He likes the NC700 DCT/ABS for off road and is a serious off road rider.

ABS is a lot better than it used to be. It is not perfect. It is better than the skills of nearly all riders.

 

[Deleted member 1183]

The entire litigation culture imho, has ruined modern living. I agree that ABS is a great addition to modern motorcycling. Indeed if I had had it on my KTM last November I would not have fallen off of it. However, some folks will use any excuse to litigate, and regrettably such behaviour has now migrated across the pond from the USA to Europe also. It is now so bad that ordinary motorcyclists like myself run the risk of litigation by a disgruntled Wife or relative, if someone falls off their bike on a run that I organise. The end result of that is that I now only open up my organised road or offroad spins for folks I know extremely well. A friend of mine once lent a bike to his best friend for a spin out one sunday as his friend's bike was broken. During the course of the spin the borrower fell off and was killed. A very sad situation for all concerned. However the borrowers Wife sued on the basis that the lent bike was at fault. Engineers pored over the bike. All they could ascertain was that there was no dust cap on the rear tyre valve. They suggested that the tyre had inflated suddenly causing the crash. This was nonsense of course. In the end both parties settled. Bad day for motorcycling.

 

[Jelly]

Wise words Griff which I wholeheartedly agree with, especially the ambulance chasers etc.

Anyway, back to ABS, why won't it work in a corner? Surely if a wheel locks up the ABS will kick in, regardless of lean angle?

 

[davidc83]

When I had my 2009 BMW G650gs with ABS, the abs did break loose on the gravel when applying the brake, but the break looses were quick and repeated quickly until the speed and traction were compatibile. Users don't realize ABS does not stop the wheel lockups (either in cars or on bikes). Cagers usually don't feel the lock ups on gravel/ice/snow because the lockups are so quick (microsecs) and they have thousands of pounds of material between themselves and the tires. We just feel it on the bikes because we are setting above the tires and can hear the lockups on the gravel (I did anyways)-it was no big deal, sometimes sounded like the creepy music from the Friday 13th movies, sh sh sh sh sh.....

 

[Tim Clynes]

I never experienced the ABS kick in on my Pan Europeans, but then I never tried to make it either, and only once on the Transalp when I myopic car driver trusted my psychic power to let me know he was going to turn across my path.

It wasn't too pleasant, as the wheel locked and unlocked the long travel suspension made the bike bounce a little, but she stayed up right. But if the adrenalin hadn't been pumping a progressive squeeze on the front would have stopped me quicker without the ABS kicking in at all.

I agree with Old Can Rider that fitting it as standard will help inexperienced riders grabbing a fistful of front and hitting the Tarmac as a result, but only if the bike is upright and travelling on a straight line.

However, this is all a digression from the issue of litigation. You sit yourself on two wheels without the benefit of adequate training and you take a risk, as you do if you jump straight onto a powerful machine until you've cut your teeth on lighter, lower performance bikes (hats off to the UK for introducing the European progressive licensing model), to blame a manufacturer for lack of experience or poor road surface, ridiculous.

 

[L.B.S.]

Wise words Griff which I wholeheartedly agree with, especially the ambulance chasers etc.

Anyway, back to ABS, why won't it work in a corner? Surely if a wheel locks up the ABS will kick in, regardless of lean angle?

I think it has to do with the fact that you don't have to have a wheel lock up, in order to still slide sideways. Sometimes just the speeding up or slowing down the rotation (via opening up, or whacking the throttle closed, or applying front or rear brakes) of the wheels, can lead to a lateral slide, due to shifted weight/angle/front or rear % bias.

On a motorcycle that is leaning over, the contact patch is markedly reduced as it is, and if you overload the traction limit even for a micro second, it's just too much, too fast, and *crash* down you go. Sliding rubber is like ice compared to rolling friction.


Off this reply topic, but on the theme of: "ABS= Safety"

With my former BMW, the ABS was so bad that it would cause a dangerous inability to stop, under the most benign conditions. Small bumps or pavement irregularities + braking, would cause the front brake to release for extended time/distances, which were well within any competent rider's abilities to manually press/release the lever, and come to a perfectly normal and safe stop.

Once you've blown through a few crosswalks and part way into an intersection at a red light, you have a very different opinion of ABS being the be-all end-all of nanny state safety requirements...

In relation to my NCX, thankfully it's ABS operation was just fine, and worked exactly how I had imagined the verklempt invention *should* function. The Linked part of Honda's design, I'm not so fond of, depending.

A while back I accidently did something to damage or discombobulate my ABS , and so have been riding with no anti-lock for the past few months. No biggie, but I discovered while on a few thousand km's of bad gravel roads, that I couldn't utilize the rear brake as much as I wanted to, because the front brake would also operate. It's fine when the ABS works, but it sucked a bit having the front wheel get all squirrelly and lock up when I strictly did not want any front brake, only rear. There was nothing I could do to get around that particular problem except go slower and learn to embrace feeling like I was going to bin it every 10 yards lol...

 

[Hati]

The biggest problem with the ABS is people not being used to it. Most new riders would stop braking hard when they feel the ABS kick in. Like they are about to break the bike in some way. One would have to make a conscious effort to not let the brake levers go under emergency braking when the ABS is pumping. If you can do that, the ABS will help every time.

The recommendations for turning off ABS on dirt are there because dirt riding often requires controlled sliding to make corners at speed. The ABS cannot see the bend you try to make, so it will not modulate rear wheel lockup for you. You need to do it to suit your speed, the surface and the severity of the bend. Some bikes come with a setting that disables rear ABS only, so hard braking on gravel will not let you lock the front up, which usually is a guaranteed fall.

 

[2brnut2b]

I ABSolutely love it on the NC. Saved my butt a couple of times om the road. I appreciate it even on gravel road

 

[geesantoz]

Noob Question ... How to safely test the ABS on NC700x ?

I never have ABS bike before ... learn from the hard part that high side or low side was not fun with the broken bone and some skin mark as a proof.
so usually i apply brake with little on the front and more on the rear to make it not slide ...

couple of days ago i have to brake in panic as a cager cut me off (probably part of it is my fault as i may be on the SUV blind spot) .. but i did not feel different with my previous bike that does not have ABS. probably not hard enough braking hence does not feel the ABS ... But perhaps the ABS works .. who knows, i don't feel the difference ...

 

[Konrad]

Noob Question ... How to safely test the ABS on NC700x ?

I never have ABS bike before ... learn from the hard part that high side or low side was not fun with the broken bone and some skin mark as a proof.
so usually i apply brake with little on the front and more on the rear to make it not slide ...

couple of days ago i have to brake in panic as a cager cut me off (probably part of it is my fault as i may be on the SUV blind spot) .. but i did not feel different with my previous bike that does not have ABS. probably not hard enough braking hence does not feel the ABS ... But perhaps the ABS works .. who knows, i don't feel the difference ...

It's a learning curve but don't teach yourself bad habits by using tons of rear brake because your scared now. It's well worth knowing how much front brake a bike can handle. My recommendation to you would be to buy the book "Twist of the wrist 2" or one and read it. It's very educational and as much as some of it is "Race" oriented I believe it does a good job helping ALL riders.

 

[Hati]

Noob Question ... How to safely test the ABS on NC700x ?

I never have ABS bike before ... learn from the hard part that high side or low side was not fun with the broken bone and some skin mark as a proof.
so usually i apply brake with little on the front and more on the rear to make it not slide ...

couple of days ago i have to brake in panic as a cager cut me off (probably part of it is my fault as i may be on the SUV blind spot) .. but i did not feel different with my previous bike that does not have ABS. probably not hard enough braking hence does not feel the ABS ... But perhaps the ABS works .. who knows, i don't feel the difference ...

You will KNOW when the ABS kicks in. It will most likely scare you. Your rear brake is more for show then function. Front brakes are much more efficient on bikes because when you brake the weight transfers to the front, increasing friction. Wipe your hands together gently. If palms are dry, your hands will slip past one another. Push your hands together hard, no slip. That's a lot like what happens on your bike when you grab the anchors. Can't remember the actual percentages but is A LOT more up front. Because of this weight transfer, you unload the rear wheel, so any rear braking will be way less effective. So using very little front brake is a VERY BAD practice. You use more front than back even in the wet. On snow or ice you have to be even or slightly rear biased.

The hard work of balancing your brakes are mitigated for you to an extent by the linked brakes you have on the 700.

 

[geesantoz]

It's a learning curve but don't teach yourself bad habits by using tons of rear brake because your scared now. It's well worth knowing how much front brake a bike can handle. My recommendation to you would be to buy the book "Twist of the wrist 2" or one and read it. It's very educational and as much as some of it is "Race" oriented I believe it does a good job helping ALL riders.

Thanks ... can't wait to get hand of the book.

 

[geesantoz]

You will KNOW when the ABS kicks in. It will most likely scare you. Your rear brake is more for show then function. Front brakes are much more efficient on bikes because when you brake the weight transfers to the front, increasing friction. Wipe your hands together gently. If palms are dry, your hands will slip past one another. Push your hands together hard, no slip. That's a lot like what happens on your bike when you grab the anchors. Can't remember the actual percentages but is A LOT more up front. Because of this weight transfer, you unload the rear wheel, so any rear braking will be way less effective. So using very little front brake is a VERY BAD practice. You use more front than back even in the wet. On snow or ice you have to be even or slightly rear biased.

The hard work of balancing your brakes are mitigated for you to an extent by the linked brakes you have on the 700.

Gosh thanks ... this is good to know. have to take more attention on braking with ABS and learn how to do it correctly.

 

[mreric]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ_UkAFW6cA



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0O...outube.com/watch?v=J0OR9GW4Y6g&has_verified=1

^ this is what happened when the front wheel locks, the fork collapsed due to hard braking and force you to turn the handle. and down you go

 

[Old Can Ride]

I need a pair of those training wheels.

 

[Konrad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVWLIfChUwg

May or may not be as useful as the book. But I'm sure it will help.

 

[mreric]

I think very little safety has been added to modern motorcycle.

I wish we had the same level of safety that modern entry level car has as a standard feature, airbags, traction control, abs, skid control.

all this tech is already avail but seem like we as consumer havent asked for it.

ducati has a wireless airbag jacket system
many sport bike have abs and traction control

 

[dduelin]

Some smart attorney must have gone after Suzuki for the ABS breaking.

"Depending on road surface conditions, such as wet, loose, or uneven roads, braking distance for an ABS-equipped vehicle may be longer than for a vehicle not equipped with ABS. ABS cannot prevent wheel skidding caused by braking while cornering. Please drive carefully and do not overly rely on ABS."

New Vstrom ad now have this disclaimer. There is a reason BMW suggest always turning off the ABS when in the dirt!

However, I believe as a general rule of thumb, new riders are most times better off with ABS on the paved roadway, because of the over reaction factor.

Because some of the forces acting on the tire contact patches are to the outside of a turn it is possible to exceed the friction coefficient of one or both tires when braking forces are added to turning forces. In a steady turn the rider may be leaned over and using 80% of available traction then he applies the brakes and exceeds 100% of available traction. The result is a low side crash even though the rider may have thought ABS would prevent his tires from losing traction under braking. This is the reason for the legal disclaimer.

At the present time only KTM offers a Motorcycle Stability Control by Bosch that can handle ABS braking forces when the motorcycle is leaned over. BMW is adding it to certain 2015 models IIRC.