Brakes - Manual vs. ABS

[MZ5]

If anyone is still interested in the original question, I have not seen any evidence that the NC700XC's non-ABS brakes are linked. That is, I have not noticed a brake line running forward from the foot pedal to the fork area.

 

[Billy Budd]

I do not think they are linked either.

 

[FrankQC]

Answer to the OP:

NC700X -> Not linked
NC700XA/XD/SA -> linked

As for the ABS discussion.. There is a nice "ABS disabling feature" located inside the fuse box of the XA/XD/SA models, if some of you wants to give it a try for a real comparison. As of now, many ABS related threads in this forum are comparing ABS / Non-ABS NC's with different riders, which cheeses the real results. ABS is really is personal preference, as the bike color or accessories. Oddly, most non-ABS NC owners seems to hate ABS, even if the ABS option (read XA) is not available to them at all. They will tell you that the NC is better without ABS (Doh). Same for the ABS NC's owners, they'll tell you they are a better choice... Go figure... I cannot even get a Non-ABS NC here in Canada, so YES, I'll tell you that the ABS version is better ! It would be nice to have a real NC gravel / dirt road test with the same experienced rider with and without ABS. By the way, for those of you concerned about the ABS "added" weight, it is exactly 9 pounds.

 

[calbigbird]

I do not believe the brakes are linked. Front and rear are each independent systems. I find the brakes on the NC are fine. There are videos of a pro doing brakees lifting the rear wheel quite a way from the pavement. How much front brake do we really need. I am a front braker. I seldom use the rear brake, except in emergency situations. As peviously said, the NC is no superbike, but if that had been what I waned, that is what I would have bought.

 

[FrankQC]

I do not believe the brakes are linked. Front and rear are each independent systems.

As I said, they are not linked on the NC700X (manual without ABS) but they are linked on all other models with ABS (XA/XD/SA):



I can easily lift the read end of my NC even with ABS and linked brakes, the linked brakes only gives you 3rd piston on the front caliper.

 

[Rocker66]

That looks nasty. As they say its not good when your mbition exceeds your ability. I'm sure most of us have been guilty of that at some time

 

[wgwgoldwing]

Whenever the topic of ABS comes up, I think of this:

WGW

 

[calbigbird]

Now THAT is funny.

 

[Beemerphile]

I would have wanted ABS if it were unlinked and switchable. As offered, I don't want it. I am not against ABS but I would not own this particular implementation of it. I'm liking my 3 piston non-linked non-ABS brakes just fine. In 45 years I have never crashed from a braking error. I can hold them at the point of lock-up and I can recover from a locked wheel. You actually have about one second before the front end starts to tuck in Plenty of time to release and re-apply.

It is also fine with me that everyone that likes ABS and wouldn't own a bike without it thinks they are smarter than I am. Doh. However, being smarter than me is not much of a distinction. I don't make any judgements about the intelligence level of people who choose differently. Their bike, their life, their choice.

Here is an ABS system that I would buy...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorbikes/8374140/KTM-990-SM-T-ABS-review.html

The dual-channel ABS system developed by Bosch continues as standard equipment on the 990 SM T, but has the feature to be switched off depending on riding conditions. Stopping the Supermoto T are dual 305mm discs with four-piston Brembo calipers up front, and a 240mm rotor with two-piston caliper out back.

And it weighs in at two lbs. instead of nine.

 

[FrankQC]

Same for the ABS NC's owners, they'll tell you they are a better choice... Go figure... I cannot even get a Non-ABS NC here in Canada, so YES, I'll tell you that the ABS version is better !

It is also fine with me that everyone that likes ABS and wouldn't own a bike without it thinks they are smarter than I am. Doh. However, being smarter than me is not much of a distinction. I don't make any judgements about the intelligence level of people who choose differently.

Beemer, I don't know where this reply is coming from and who told you they are smarter than you, bacause I cannot find such statement in this thread. I hope you were not offended by my previous post and catched the 2nd level of it. It wasn't intended to jeopardize the intelligence of anyone. In fact I haven't used the words "smarter" or "intelligence" to prevent this from happening. I was stating that people sometimes feel the need to say they choose and purchased the *best* model and argue with others about that, even if there is no other model available to them, and they were even not able to give the other models a try to back their comments. Don't get me wrong, I'm part of them, I guess it's part of human nature. As I said, the XA (manual / ABS) is the only one available in Canada, so I'm leaning toward the ABS version ;-)

As offered, I don't want it. I am not against ABS but I would not own this particular implementation of it.

Technically speaking, wouldn't it be possible to remove the delay valve on the front caliper, cap the output on the ABS modulator to that valve, and bridge the 3rd piston to the two others ? I don't know on which line the modulator has its effect, on the outer pistons, the center one, or all 3 ?

 

[Beemerphile]

Beemer, I don't know where this reply is coming from and who told you they are smarter than you, bacause I cannot find such statement in this thread.

It was the Homer Simpson response to anyone who thought the bike was better without it. Homer is not the icon of intellect. The system has pros and cons. Everyone scores them and weights them differently consistent with their own situations. You can't assess my decision against your criteria. There is no universally correct answer to it. I pointed readers to an ABS solution that I liked for comparison. The solution and the design mindset behind it suit me. This one does not. I am not trying to sell my position on it, just explaining that there are different ways to do ABS and that some of them are designed to not interfere with off-road or high performance street riding.

Technically speaking, wouldn't it be possible to remove the delay valve on the front caliper, cap the output on the ABS modulator to that valve, and bridge the 3rd piston to the two others ? I don't know on which line the modulator has its effect, on the outer pistons, the center one, or all 3 ?

I don't know if that would work or not, but if I was saddled with combined brakes I would be experimenting with it.

 

[FrankQC]

Homer is not the icon of intellect.

I bet you've seen my avatar. It means I just don't take everything too seriously, not that I am affected by the same brain disability...

I don't know if that would work or not, but if I was saddled with combined brakes I would be experimenting with it.

I'm trying to find some information about the internals of that ABS modulator but may not really succeed. Moreover, it would not be as easy as I thought to just enable / disable the ABS with a switch, at least while riding. The ABS module does a pre-start self-diagnosis when first starting the bike, and enables itself > 4mph. It would be theoretically possible to disable it while riding (thus generating an error code) but no way it would re-enable itself while riding. It would need a complete reboot to get it to work and again, with the previously reported error code, I doubt it would re-engage as easily.

 

[L.B.S.]

Bah. I typed, and typed, and retyped, several thousand words that tried to explain my views on the whole ABS thing, but everytime I read it, it only came across as an old crotchety guy's foaming and ranting, no matter how many times I edited it or softened it. lol

Hey, peeps that love your ABS, I've got no problems with you at all. Not one. I have no desire to insult or alienate any nice folks here, so I'll just keep my big mouth shut.

I'll just say I find ABS and linked brake frippery distasteful personally, but admit that the NC700X been a very good "ambassador" to making me grudgingly accept it. I am so relieved that the ABS/Combined stuff on mine is as non interfering as I could have hoped it to be. If it had been anywhere near as horrible as my BMW was, I would not have bought one. (or possibly investigated taking some wirecutters to the ABS gizmo or replumbing the brake lines manually, or pulling fuses or something, but thankfully it's not seemed neccessary so far...)

 

[Rocker66]

I think that ABS is a bit like disk breaks and fuel injection in that as time goes on they become far more refined

 

[MZ5]

I expect you're right, Rocker66.

ABS isn't about dry pavement stopping distance anyway. It's about slick, particularly unexpectedly-slick or variably-slick, pavement. It's about corners when you're trail-braking (whether we're supposed to or not, sometimes we do, and sometimes we have to). It's about people with fewer than 40 years of riding experience. Even if they're on their way to or from a training class, and even if they're the absolute most conscientious and well-intentioned rider out there, if they get caught in a tough situation, that's what ABS is about. And it's also about panic. Even the most skilled, most practiced, most competent rider can be induced to panic. Panic is when your training and practice _doesn't_ take over; it overwhelms and overcomes it. That's when the speed of the system massively out-classes even the most skilled rider. A simple 'off' switch addresses the counter-arguments.

Linking brakes, particularly on a bike that's supposed to be dirt-capable, is a somewhat different thing.