Perishable Skills

[mzflorida]

In my youth I spent 4 years riding a motorcycle in a large city every day as part of my employment. Probably the most dangerous thing I’ve done on a daily basis. There was rarely a day that I wasn’t subject to a near collision due to some idiot. It was a good training ground, and what with additional training that I underwent, very valuable In acquiring safety skills.

I now live in a small town, and it takes me a matter of minutes to get into the country, and ride basically straight roads. Not an environment for developing many riding skills if you’re learning. I don’t disagree that taking a riding safety course is very beneficial when you’re inexperienced, and a refresher course can‘t hurt, especially if you live in an area like I do, where skills can deteriorate.

Great story! Seat time is just not enough for a lot of us.

 

[potter0o]

In our province training is not required. You start by passing a computer test to get your learners license. If you don't pass you have to wait 7 days to retake the test. With your learners license you can ride a motorcycle with restrictions. Those being you need to ride within sight of a fully licensed motorcycle rider(some age restrictions), must not exceed 60 km/hr, can only ride during daylight hours, and depending on your class you may have to display a learners sign. The class depends on if you already have a full drivers license.

To get to the next tier you need to take a skills test which can only be done after you have had your learners license for 14 days. This test can be bypassed if you take a certified training course where the school assesses basic riding. This is a parking lot drill with a slow slalom and a three point turn. On passing the speed and supervision restriction are removed. The other restrictions remain. No pass leads to a 7 day wait before retesting.

To get the remaining restrictions removed you have to complete a motorcycle driving test. Depending on your learners classification the wait is 12 months if you don't have a full car license or 30 days if you do. They give you an earphone headset to wear inside your helmet and follow you as you ride. My test was 45 minutes through residential streets, school zones and a highway segment. There may be restrictions if you pass the test on a low cc, scooter or three wheeled vehicle. If you don't pass the driving test the first retake wait is 14 days, second retake wait is 30 days, and 60 day wait for additional retakes.

I think the concept of the licensing is good but the classes and rider training is expensive. A certified licensing program is $900+ where they supply the motorcycle. Most continuing education programs are $400+.

 

[dduelin]

US riders and other vehicle drivers …It’s bad… I wager most don’t remember a thing from the simple written test and the most basic skills demonstration test prior having the license granted and haven’t learned a single thing since. In my state it is estimated 20% of riders don’t have a motorcycle endorsement and that’s on top of 20% with no valid license.

In 2005 I took my 16 yo daughter to the DMV office for her license testing. When she turned in the written test the examiner expressed surprise that she passed it first effort. Curiosity had me ask “Is that unusual?” The average at that office 18 years ago was three attempts. You could take it over and over until achieving a passing score.

 

[670cc]

US riders and other vehicle drivers …It’s bad… I wager most don’t remember a thing from the simple written test and the most basic skills demonstration test prior having the license granted and haven’t learned a single thing since. In my state it is estimated 20% of riders don’t have a motorcycle endorsement and that’s on top of 20% with no valid license.

In 2005 I took my 16 yo daughter to the DMV office for her license testing. When she turned in the written test the examiner expressed surprise that she passed it first effort. Curiosity had me ask “Is that unusual?” The average at that office 18 years ago was three attempts. You could take it over and over until achieving a passing score.

Around my place a guy would advertise continuously that you could rent his 200cc scooter so you could take your motorcycle skills license test and pass it more easily than trying to do it on your heavy road bike. Why attempt it on your own bike, at the risk of failing?

 

[mzflorida]

In our province training is not required. You start by passing a computer test to get your learners license. If you don't pass you have to wait 7 days to retake the test. With your learners license you can ride a motorcycle with restrictions. Those being you need to ride within sight of a fully licensed motorcycle rider(some age restrictions), must not exceed 60 km/hr, can only ride during daylight hours, and depending on your class you may have to display a learners sign. The class depends on if you already have a full drivers license.

To get to the next tier you need to take a skills test which can only be done after you have had your learners license for 14 days. This test can be bypassed if you take a certified training course where the school assesses basic riding. This is a parking lot drill with a slow slalom and a three point turn. On passing the speed and supervision restriction are removed. The other restrictions remain. No pass leads to a 7 day wait before retesting.

To get the remaining restrictions removed you have to complete a motorcycle driving test. Depending on your learners classification the wait is 12 months if you don't have a full car license or 30 days if you do. They give you an earphone headset to wear inside your helmet and follow you as you ride. My test was 45 minutes through residential streets, school zones and a highway segment. There may be restrictions if you pass the test on a low cc, scooter or three wheeled vehicle. If you don't pass the driving test the first retake wait is 14 days, second retake wait is 30 days, and 60 day wait for additional retakes.

I think the concept of the licensing is good but the classes and rider training is expensive. A certified licensing program is $900+ where they supply the motorcycle. Most continuing education programs are $400+.

I really like the idea of tiered licensing. Our MSF courses are about 200 USD with your own bike, Harley and BMW are about 325 and they provide the bikes…in SW Florida.

 

[mzflorida]

with no valid license.

In 2005 I took my 16 yo daughter to the DMV office for her license testing. When she tu

US riders and other vehicle drivers …It’s bad… I wager most don’t remember a thing from the simple written test and the most basic skills demonstration test prior having the license granted and haven’t learned a single thing since. In my state it is estimated 20% of riders don’t have a motorcycle endorsement and that’s on top of 20% with no valid license.

In 2005 I took my 16 yo daughter to the DMV office for her license testing. When she turned in the written test the examiner expressed surprise that she passed it first effort. Curiosity had me ask “Is that unusual?” The average at that office 18 years ago was three attempts. You could take it over and over until achieving a passing score.

Glad those days are gone.

 

[Rabbit]

I really like the idea of tiered licensing. Our MSF courses are about 200 USD with your own bike, Harley and BMW are about 325 and they provide the bikes…in SW Florida.

Ohio MSF course is 75$ and they provide the bikes.

 

[MZ5]

In none of the western US states where I've lived is a training course required. In all those same states, demonstration of skills IS required. The skills tests appear to me to be broadly similar across the USA, but not exactly the same. Those same states all offer motorcycle learners' permits which allow a rider to ride in daylight hours only (and some other restrictions which vary state to state) after taking a knowledge test.

I chose to take a training course after I'd had my permit for a couple or few weeks. I had ridden dirt bikes both for fun and on the farm since I was a kid, but it still seemed like a reasonable thing to do. Also, I was under the impression that it would yield lower insuranc rates. The classroom stuff in that class was a complete waste of my time, but it might not have been for a teenager who hadn't driven much of anything before, or who just isn't terribly 'aware.' The riding part was perfectly good. There was nothing in it I hadn't already learned or taught myself, but it still was not a bad thing. Plus, the test at the end replaced the State's test for the license, so that was handy. As an aside, it turned out that no insurance company I talked to cared whether I'd taken a training class. Knowing how insurance and actuarial tables work, that seems like a relevant fact. I'm informed that some companies offer a discount for training courses. I wonder how much of a discount it is?

Commentary: Skills training should NOT be required. Skills _demonstration_ probably should be (and is). However, the enironmental, roadway, and demographic(??) variation across the USA, and even across most individual American states, is so vast that anything more than a rudimentary set of skills simply should not be centrally mandated. Happily, that's what most legislatures seem to have determined as well. On training: Whether I learn the skills needed on my own, by working with a friend or family member, or by paying someone else to teach me is utterly irrelevant, but it's a brilliant money-making strategy for a company to convince legislators to force people to use their business.

 

[Rabbit]

In none of the western US states where I've lived is a training course required. In all those same states, demonstration of skills IS required. The skills tests appear to me to be broadly similar across the USA, but not exactly the same. Those same states all offer motorcycle learners' permits which allow a rider to ride in daylight hours only (and some other restrictions which vary state to state) after taking a knowledge test.

I chose to take a training course after I'd had my permit for a couple or few weeks. I had ridden dirt bikes both for fun and on the farm since I was a kid, but it still seemed like a reasonable thing to do. Also, I was under the impression that it would yield lower insuranc rates. The classroom stuff in that class was a complete waste of my time, but it might not have been for a teenager who hadn't driven much of anything before, or who just isn't terribly 'aware.' The riding part was perfectly good. There was nothing in it I hadn't already learned or taught myself, but it still was not a bad thing. Plus, the test at the end replaced the State's test for the license, so that was handy. As an aside, it turned out that no insurance company I talked to cared whether I'd taken a training class. Knowing how insurance and actuarial tables work, that seems like a relevant fact. I'm informed that some companies offer a discount for training courses. I wonder how much of a discount it is?

Commentary: Skills training should NOT be required. Skills _demonstration_ probably should be (and is). However, the enironmental, roadway, and demographic(??) variation across the USA, and even across most individual American states, is so vast that anything more than a rudimentary set of skills simply should not be centrally mandated. Happily, that's what most legislatures seem to have determined as well. On training: Whether I learn the skills needed on my own, by working with a friend or family member, or by paying someone else to teach me is utterly irrelevant, but it's a brilliant money-making strategy for a company to convince legislators to force people to use their business.

Discount was about 10$ a year for me which works out to about 8%. YMMV.

 

[potter0o]

I have looked at some US based MSF courses, primarily in Washington state. In some states these are subsidized. I think the idea is that helping keep the costs down encourages the riders to invest in continuing education. I think every course I have taken I have gotten something out of it. I have not heard of attendees of these courses unhappy. These courses have made me a better rider and in all honesty I don't practice the skills enough. Doing a course creates the practice time. To me it is kind of like a gym trainer. You can go to the gym and do the exercises. Many don't have the discipline to do the work. When people pay a trainer they have more of an investment. I see riding the same. You can get a lot better just by doing the exercises on your own, but I personally get more out of it with a course and coaching.

 

[davidc83]

When I started riding in 1978 in Indiana (USA), no motorcycle endorsement existed, just needed a drivers license. In 1980, Indiana passed a law requiring motorcycle endorsement which included a written test and a riding course test. However, if you got your endorsement within 6 months of the law being enforced, you only had to take the written test. Which I did. I rode for 4 years, but stopped riding for 30 years due to starting a family and military but kept my endorsement on my license. In 2006, I started riding again with a Suzuki gz250. Put 11,000 miles on the little bike in 6 months before moving to other bikes. Since, I have ridden over 200,000 miles, took a basic msf course and an advanced course. When I moved to Florida, the bmv accepted my Indiana endorsement. The bmv lady told me they accepted endorsements from most states, except Louisiana. I have realized by being in Florida the past 1.5 years, my riding skills in curves has diminished (may have 11 curves in 318 miles,,lol). In Indiana, I had 200 curves in 20 miles out my driveway.

 

[MZ5]

I have looked at some US based MSF courses, primarily in Washington state. In some states these are subsidized.

That is a good point which I forgot to mention. In Arizona (where I live presently), there is a Motorcycle Safety & Awareness Foundation (AMSAF.org) which offers subsidies for rides to get basic training, and separately to purchase helmets. Much of that money comes from the State, but a good amount comes from other donors, too.

 

[dduelin]

When I started riding in 1978 in Indiana (USA), no motorcycle endorsement existed, just needed a drivers license. In 1980, Indiana passed a law requiring motorcycle endorsement which included a written test and a riding course test. However, if you got your endorsement within 6 months of the law being enforced, you only had to take the written test. Which I did. I rode for 4 years, but stopped riding for 30 years due to starting a family and military but kept my endorsement on my license. In 2006, I started riding again with a Suzuki gz250. Put 11,000 miles on the little bike in 6 months before moving to other bikes. Since, I have ridden over 200,000 miles, took a basic msf course and an advanced course. When I moved to Florida, the bmv accepted my Indiana endorsement. The bmv lady told me they accepted endorsements from most states, except Louisiana. I have realized by being in Florida the past 1.5 years, my riding skills in curves has diminished (may have 11 curves in 318 miles,,lol). In Indiana, I had 200 curves in 20 miles out my driveway.

We need to ride together sometime if you can't find some curves nearby. Don't you live in or near Williston?

 

[davidc83]

We need to ride together sometime if you can't find some curves nearby. Don't you live in or near Williston?

Yes I do, between Williston/Bronson/Archer. Yes we do need to ride. I have found a couple of nice riding roads, but they are short and it is straight to get there. My days off are usually getting caught up on farm chores I put off due to working part time 4 days a week and each week has different days and different shifts.

 

[mzflorida]

We need to ride together sometime if you can't find some curves nearby. Don't you live in or near Williston?

We need to ride together sometime if you can't find some curves nearby. Don't you live in or near Williston?

I'd love the chance to join you both.