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Things I have noticed so far about Honda and the NC

lootzyan said:
Really? So what's happened then, at 1:24, at your own "(How not to do) Walking Speed presentation", which cannot be viewed anymore?

http://nc700-forum.com/forum/nc750-general-discussion/10353-how-dct-doing-very-low-speeds-2.html?highlight=speed+maneuvers
Click to expand...
What happened at 1:24 is I stopped and tried to balance feet up without the bars squared up straight ahead and I dropped it. That drop had nothing to do with low speed handling the DCT. The link on the original post is still live, AFAIK it's never been removed.

For me the DCT is easier to handle in the friction zone compared to a manual. The computer always gets it right, never gets tired, and doesn't have to compensate for a different wrist angle to the left grip at left lock vs right lock. All I have to do is handle the power setting and modulate the rear brake. How does it work for you in the friction zone vs a manual?
 
lootzyan said:
None of my Win 10 five major browsers, with Adobe Flash enabled and firewall disabled, can handle those links.
Click to expand...
I don't know why - it's Photobucket for pete's sake. Right now I see the vids embedded in your post #21 on my iPhone and on this MS Win7 laptop I see a hyperlink that opens to an embedded vid in the previous thread from 12/12/15. They all open for me.

Here:
 
permissions issue? or the site won't work for those with tracker cookies or whatever disabled?
 
dduelin said:
I don't know why - it's Photobucket for pete's sake. Right now I see the vids embedded in your post #21 on my iPhone and on this MS Win7 laptop I see a hyperlink that opens to an embedded vid in the previous thread from 12/12/15. They all open for me.

Here:
Click to expand...

works fine for me, those slow drops are the worst :p
 
I had a 2012 NC and now have a 2014. I've changed the windscreen on both, changed the seat on the 2012, haven't gotten that far with the /14 yet. I've added grip puppies, have added H&B saddlebags, and a set of highway pegs. Next will be a seat and change the rear signal lights to running/stop/signal LED units. The 2014 has a 2 Brothers performance muffler on it from the previous owner (had 1565 miles on it when I purchased back in June and now has over 3500). I bought it for some gravel road riding and not for touring.
 
dduelin said:
I don't know why - it's Photobucket for pete's sake...
Click to expand...

(Video cannot be viewed on my two Win 10 PCs and one Android tablet browser, but no problem viewing on iPad or MS Vista PC, which wasn't updated for long time. It must be another "mandatory update" for Adobe Flash player...)

Nobody can doubt your skills. You are equivalent of rock climber of motorcycling. But the same time you trivialize something what is difficult to others.
Even in your short 1 min ride in your demonstration video, you presented perfect low speed maneuvering, not so perfect jerky start at 1:10 (clutch engaged too fast?) and finally a drop. I don't know how I could separate problem with stopping from initial speed of maneuvering. There are many situations when is not enough time to square up handlebars before stopping. Last year I've been in similar real traffic situation, with my wife as passenger, when I almost drop my NC. I was taking right turn after stop on intersection when I was forced to brake in the middle of turn. Because of DCT's lack of friction zone it's difficult to control initial low speed (which you mastered perfectly). It was reported by many DCT riders. This, plus relatively high center of gravity of NC, convinced me to give up my NC DCT. I can do much better maneuvering on my 350 lb, Honda SH150i.
 
lootzyan said:
(Video cannot be viewed on my two Win 10 PCs and one Android tablet browser, but no problem viewing on iPad or MS Vista PC, which wasn't updated for long time. It must be another "mandatory update" for Adobe Flash player...)

Nobody can doubt your skills. You are equivalent of rock climber of motorcycling. But the same time you trivialize something what is difficult to others.
Even in your short 1 min ride in your demonstration video, you presented perfect low speed maneuvering, not so perfect jerky start at 1:10 (clutch engaged too fast?) and finally a drop. I don't know how I could separate problem with stopping from initial speed of maneuvering. There are many situations when is not enough time to square up handlebars before stopping. Last year I've been in similar real traffic situation, with my wife as passenger, when I almost drop my NC. I was taking right turn after stop on intersection when I was forced to brake in the middle of turn. Because of DCT's lack of friction zone it's difficult to control initial low speed (which you mastered perfectly). It was reported by many DCT riders. This, plus relatively high center of gravity of NC, convinced me to give up my NC DCT. I can do much better maneuvering on my 350 lb, Honda SH150i.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. A bit of back story...at the time I recorded these there was some discussion in forums about the whether or not upcoming Africa Twin DCT could handle intricate slow speed maneuvers without the rider have a clutch to feather. I knew it could if it was anything like the 700. This video is 8 or 9 months old, it's hard to remember exactly the drop but looking at it again I remember spotting this parking lot, this lot, that had significant slope to make it harder to modulate speed as it changed from upslope/downslope/cross slope as well as having a post close enough that was wide enough and flat enough to the camera on. I was just riding by when i saw it and pulled in. It's 50 miles from my house and I had not practiced there before and it had no markings on the ground unlike the place near my house that I usually to practice at.

I think I was afraid of hitting the post as came around at 1:20 or so, arcing from cross slope to downslope and I panicky leaned a bit more left to clear the post without counterbalancing my weight far enough to the right to keep the CG over the line between the contact patches. I'm not sure I planned to stop but I either braked too much, leaned too much, or cut the throttle too much and down I went. Those that have and those the will, eh?

I like slow riding may because it is challenging and because I'm short of leg and can't rely on long legs to keep me upright. I do stuff like this on my ST1300 and its 250 lbs more with a higher CG so the NC is in comparison easy but not as easy as my 175 lb Passport 70 or 170 lb Elite 80. I think the friction zone of the DCT is easier to modulate than a manual clutch 700 model ( I have 45,000 miles on both) but YMMV.
 
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I know nothing about riding a DCT, and I appreicate all the help I can find. I have a short inseam, so once (if ever) I get my AT DCT, I will also be in the parking lot learning slow speed riding all over again without feathering the clutch. I have a felling I had best put my crash guards on first!
 
So I'm confused about the concept of a "friction zone" on a DCT. A friction zone is a partial engagement of a clutch, and my understanding is that with the DCT one of the 2 clutches is always engaged. So at slow speed I get the you adjust throttle and use rear brake for control, but it seems there is no actual friction zone. Am I missing something.?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
GregC said:
So I'm confused about the concept of a "friction zone" on a DCT. A friction zone is a partial engagement of a clutch, and my understanding is that with the DCT one of the 2 clutches is always engaged. So at slow speed I get the you adjust throttle and use rear brake for control, but it seems there is no actual friction zone. Am I missing something.?
Click to expand...

This is my understanding also. You can simulate "friction zone" with rear brake. Honda should address, to some extents, friction zone with new PCM function for 2016 models of NC DCT and AT.
 
GregC said:
So I'm confused about the concept of a "friction zone" on a DCT. A friction zone is a partial engagement of a clutch, and my understanding is that with the DCT one of the 2 clutches is always engaged. So at slow speed I get the you adjust throttle and use rear brake for control, but it seems there is no actual friction zone. Am I missing something.?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
You are missing something - but just to a point. The idle speed is about 1,200 rpm. The engine can be in Drive or Sport modes in 1st gear, in other words, "in gear" and it just sits there as if you had a manual transmission version in gear with the clutch disengaged. It doesn't creep or move forward. If it is on a slope it will roll downhill unless held by a brake application.

When you increase the engine speed a set of valves allow oil pressure to begin engaging the 1st, 3rd, 5th clutch just as you would begin to let the clutch out and increase engine rpms on a manual. It is a progressive engagement and not 'off or on' or 'engaged or not engaged'. This is the friction zone. In some descriptions this clutch is termed the "starting clutch". It only is partially engaged to fully engaged as the PCM determines depending on rpm and road speed. It is fully engaged by probably 1600 or 1800 rpms. When it shifts between gears 2 to 6th one clutch is engaged when the other is disengaged. There is a progressive friction zone only when starting and stopping in 1st gear. The other shifts are more or less instantaneous with little to no slip between shifts.
 
I'm not so sure about this DCT thing. I came from riding scooters and I like the twist and go thing, but on a big bike I prefer a clutch. I think it gives more control when braking.
 
On the DCT, you can still control.. its not like a scooter. Engine braking is there and you can always thumb another gear.
 
So the friction zone on the DCT is between idle (1200 rpm) and 1600-1800 rpm? I'll have to play with that in the parking lot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
dduelin said:
... What don't you understand about how the clutch disengages at low rpm and engages as rpms rise to 1600-1800?
Click to expand...

I didn't say I don't understand. I said that in 2nd generation DCT in start-up process clutch is engaged (and disengaged) almost instantaneously and not a "progressive engagement". PCM takes information from RPM sensor.
Owners of 3rd generation DCT could add here how controlled friction zone function works because there is almost none information about it.

Edit:
Here is some information about 3rd gen. DCT Adaptive Clutch Capacity Control system:

Honda Worldwide | Dual Clutch Transmission | Dual Clutch Transmission for CRF1000L

View attachment 30744
 
Last edited:
GregC said:
So the friction zone on the DCT is between idle (1200 rpm) and 1600-1800 rpm? I'll have to play with that in the parking lot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
With a manual clutch we can control the level of engagement at any point from fully disengaged to fully engaged with the lever but with this DCT we cannot. The amount of slip is controlled by throttle (rpm) and more rpm equals full engagement and more speed than I want for parking lot work so I have to control speed with rear brake. There is no conventional friction zone to work with in the sense of the same forward thrust can be "more clutch, less rpm or less clutch, more rpm".

Set a fast idle speed with steady throttle and modulate forward speed with rear brake.


Sorry for the thread hijack. This topic needs it's own thread.
 
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