Advice for 1300 mile ride on brand new bike

[duk2n]

Some oil filter manufacturers weld a head bolt to the housing, so it's much more easy to aply the right torque:

I always try to get filters like this

HTH

 

[SuperMek]

A better solution might be to buy the Honda oil filter cap that can be used on the standard oil filters and with a standard 17 mm spanner.

 

[Cyclerosis]

Or a strap wrench.

 

[happy]

However, they are available. I have one with a 3/8" socket adapter on the bottom.



While this would work in an emergency, it is not technically correct. The oil filter has an installation torque specification of 26 N-m (19 ft.-lb.) with oiled threads. I would choose to do it correctly unless I was on the road and could not do so. The oil drain bolt also has a specified torque (30 N-m or 22 ft.-lb.) and if you are right there with the right tools you can do both correctly. Aluminum threads don't give much warning when they are about to give, and I would reiterate my warning that most people over-tighten rather than under-tighten them when done by feel. I try very hard not to touch a motorcycle for repair without a torque wrench. Even if no spec is given, there is a general spec by size of bolt. Remember that the general spec is for the size of the bolt, not the wrench that fits it. I have heard of someone stripping a bolt because the bolt took a 12mm wrench and they went to the table for the torque for a 12mm fastener. It turned out to be an 8mm bolt.

I have serviced some of my motobikes before, mainly an oil change and oil filter.

I did not have the luxury of a torque wrench, and I was just too lazy to use it anyway.
My "gut feeling" is usually to clean up the bolt (oil drain plug) and then finger tighten it until it does not go in. Then use a wrench (ring type) to again "hand tighten" reasonably and not force anything.

For the oil filter, I hand screw it in, and the give it a final hard twist with hand / wrench (again not force, just "enough"). It worked ok for all my bikes, so far. No leakage nor breaking any screw-threads.

I always thought that there is a kind of reverse-pressure when the engine is warm and this will "seal" the drainplug and also the oil filter.

I think Lee is a big fan of his torquey wrench...

 

[happy]

The Mobil1 contains friction modifiers which are not allowed by the JASO MA specification. Mobil1 does have motorcycle specific formulations. Some people buy the car oil thinking that the motorcycle oil is just a marketing gimmick with a higher price. Not the case here.



The MA standard does not address ZDDP levels. All JASO T 903 compliant oils, of which the MA and MB standards are sub-sets, have a phosphorus level between 800 - 1,200 ppm. ZDDP is zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, and is the vehicle for providing phosphorus to the oil. It serves the purposes that you describe and has been limited lately by the EPA because phosphorus can poison the catalyst in catalytic converters if the engine is worn and has oil blow-by into the combustion chambers. Diesel and motorcycle oils have been exempted from this because they (in the past) did not have cat converters. You can probably expect a gradual lessening of the maximum allowable ZDDP as time goes on. By the way, the Mobil1 10W-30 "car oil", while not meeting the MA requirement for friction modifiers, would meet the JASO T 903 requirement for ZDDP levels.

Further to this, the MA standard is broken into two sub-categories, MA1 and MA2. You may think that MA2 is a later standard, but it is not. MA1 is the lower (slicker) end of the MA standard for friction performance and MA2 is the upper end. Oils with more friction reduction than MA are called MB. MB and unrated oils should not be used in a motorcycle with a wet clutch. If you have concerns with a wet clutch slipping, a MA2 oil would provide greater assurance than an MA1 oil, even though both would meet the standard. An MA1 oil should provide a slight benefit in fuel mileage because of the reduced friction level so long as it doesn't slip your clutch. Honda says (by specifying an MA oil instead of a MA2 oil) that MA1 oil is acceptable.

Confusing or helpful?

The former....this is like Rocket-science, man...
Oh ...my head.!

Ok, so no Mobil1 for my new NCX....did I get it right?
Seems like I was doing it wrong for 10 years with my other bikes then...ouch. Thanks for the Chemistry 101.

 

[dduelin]

While I agree mostly with the post about always using a torque wrench I disagree about the need to torque the filter. I have installed countless spin-on filters by tightening 1/2 to 3/4 turn after the oiled o-ring contacts the engine. This spans close to or more than a million miles of DIY service on my 2 and 4 wheel Hondas.

 

[happy]

The local auto parts store didn't have a filter wrench that was small enough for the NC's filter. I Improvised with
a hose clamp. I tightened the clamp around the filter. I put a socket on the end of a 3/8" extension (about 4" long).
I chose a socket that was big enough to fit over the hex head screw that you tighten/loosen the clamp with.

With the socket & extension in place on the clamp's hex screw, I used a hammer to tap the end of the extension,in a direction
to loosen the filter. It was kinda like the the worlds slowest impact wrench lol. It came off without a hitch.

I reversed the position of the clamp on the new filter to install it. I needed to loosen the clamp a couple times and reposition it, when the hex head moved out of accessibility during tightening of the filter. Btw, my improvised filter wrench allowed me to do the job without removing the plastic cover/shroud.

Erm a picture is worth a thousand words....

 

[happy]

While I agree mostly with the post about always using a torque wrench I disagree about the need to torque the filter. I have installed countless spin-on filters by tightening 1/2 to 3/4 turn after the oiled o-ring contacts the engine. This spans close to or more than a million miles of DIY service on my 2 and 4 wheel Hondas.

Ditto that.
I hand-tighten all my oilfilters. IN that way, I cannot over-tighten it.
If it does leak (never happened before), then I will tighten again with a wrench, but still no torque wrench..

Again not all of us have those toys-equipped workshop.....envy I tell you..

 

[Beemerphile]

I think Lee is a big fan of his torquey wrench...

As the great philosopher Popeye says: "Ya pays ya nickel, and ya takes ya choice."

When filter installations are spec'ed with 1/2 or 3/4 turn after contact, that is what I do. "Hand-tight" is all over the map depending on where the filter is located, it's diameter, whether anything is oily, and not to mention my hand vs. Arnold Schwartzenegger's or Lady Ga-Ga's. You guys will have to excuse me (or not) for my technical bent. I am a retired chemical engineer who spent a career in the medical manufacturing industry. Everything in my "world" was done per validated SOP unless you wanted to first validate that a change was either equivalent or an improvement. I know that if I do it by the book, it will work. There may be 50 other ways to do it that will also work. Some of you have done mental retrospective validations of your methods by citing years of positive experience. My years of experience say that I do better if I follow the book - and I always have the book. If there is a reason not to follow the book, I will make a careful analysis of a different method and may then use it. I have no reason not to use the specified torque as documented unless it is a field change. In that case, I would do as you guys do and I am sure it will be fine. But it is my fallback and not my first choice.

 

[Beemerphile]

I always thought that there is a kind of reverse-pressure when the engine is warm and this will "seal" the drainplug and also the oil filter.

"Reverse pressure" seals piston rings, bulkhead fittings, and tubeless tire plugs, but the idea that it seals an oil drain plug is phooey. I'd have to think about whether it could help seal an oil filter, it is possible that it does. It would have to act upon the sealing o-ring or gasket to increase the pressure of the seal against the sealing surface. It may be able to do this if by design or circumstance oil can get under it.

 

[happy]

As the great philosopher Popeye says: "Ya pays ya nickel, and ya takes ya choice."

When filter installations are spec'ed with 1/2 or 3/4 turn after contact, that is what I do. "Hand-tight" is all over the map depending on where the filter is located, it's diameter, whether anything is oily, and not to mention my hand vs. Arnold Schwartzenegger's or Lady Ga-Ga's. You guys will have to excuse me (or not) for my technical bent. I am a retired chemical engineer who spent a career in the medical manufacturing industry. Everything in my "world" was done per validated SOP unless you wanted to first validate that a change was either equivalent or an improvement. I know that if I do it by the book, it will work. There may be 50 other ways to do it that will also work. Some of you have done mental retrospective validations of your methods by citing years of positive experience. My years of experience say that I do better if I follow the book - and I always have the book. If there is a reason not to follow the book, I will make a careful analysis of a different method and may then use it. I have no reason not to use the specified torque as documented unless it is a field change. In that case, I would do as you guys do and I am sure it will be fine. But it is my fallback and not my first choice.

Yay, ok.
I have no workshop here at all, so anything done in the shared garage (sort of illegal) is "in the field".
If I had such a wonderful workshop, I'd also use the torque wrench, etc. Lots of envy at your nice workshop, Lee.

 

[dduelin]

Although anecdotal there is enough evidence from folks removing the Honda factory installed first filter and having trouble with it to the point of having to resort to holing or otherwise destroying the filter to remove it makes me think this is one area I can safely make my own judgement as to sufficient install torque. I am not that sure about your judgement however.

As we get experience with the NC700X service manual we will find that it will probably have errors. There are several in the ST1300 manual, at least one of which is a torque value of 51 ft/lbs for a caliper stopper bolt when it should be 1/3rd of that. I look forward to receiving my 700's manual which I ordered yesterday. I kept checking the Helm site to order one and it still shows unavailable but when Beemerphile ordered and got his I questioned the dealer yesterday who called Helm and was able to order me one. The Helm site is not updated yet but the manual is available.

 

[richarddacat]

Personally I would schedule my return ride so as to stop at a Honda dealer. Make the appropriate phones call so they know what your doing and let them go over your bike/change your oil while you take time to recuperate.

 

[Beemerphile]

Although anecdotal there is enough evidence from folks removing the Honda factory installed first filter and having trouble with it to the point of having to resort to holing or otherwise destroying the filter to remove it makes me think this is one area I can safely make my own judgement as to sufficient install torque. I am not that sure about your judgement however.

As we get experience with the NC700X service manual we will find that it will probably have errors. There are several in the ST1300 manual, at least one of which is a torque value of 51 ft/lbs for a caliper stopper bolt when it should be 1/3rd of that. I look forward to receiving my 700's manual which I ordered yesterday. I kept checking the Helm site to order one and it still shows unavailable but when Beemerphile ordered and got his I questioned the dealer yesterday who called Helm and was able to order me one. The Helm site is not updated yet but the manual is available.

I understand the possibility of errors. My first filter came off the 700x just fine. This forum will be a good place to keep track of any that we find in the 700x service manual.

 

[duk2n]

This forum will be a good place to keep track of any that we find in the 700x service manual.

What I would like is to get my hands on this manual. I emailed Helm, but they don't reply.

Proxy volunteer wanted!

 

[Beemerphile]

What I would like is to get my hands on this manual. I emailed Helm, but they don't reply.

Proxy volunteer wanted!

I think it is beween $75-80 USD. I don't know what post to Spain would be. I would do it for my cost if you are interested.

 

[duk2n]

I think it is beween $75-80 USD. I don't know what post to Spain would be. I would do it for my cost if you are interested.

Many thanks, PM sent!

 

[mpgandfun]

Erm a picture is worth a thousand words....

Very true. Here ya go.

I used a "tap-tap-tap" not a "bang-bang-bang" technique with the hammer.

 

[Beemerphile]

Oh my. No hammers. It is not a Harley-Davidson.

My dad was, believe it or not, a rocket scientist for NASA. One evening I was slide-hammering a broken axle out of my race car and my dad yelled "you don't fix anything with a damned hammer! NASA mechanics don't even have one in their toolboxes.". I said, "well dad, you might not fix a rocket with a damned hammer but that is exactly how you fix a 1957 Chevy with a broken axle."

But the older I get, the wiser he became. He has gone to his reward now, but I still try very hard not to employ a hammer for mechanical repairs. Most often there is a better way. Smooth pressure is gentler to delicate mechanisms.

 

[Rocker66]

I guess that it is a sign of the times that once upon a time if a train failed fitters would turn up with a very large tool box including hammers. Today in the same situation their most important tool is a laptop