DCT Issue

[telecam]

I think it's a good analysis. It's my feeling that signal to the shift motor or shift motor itself is at fault. I checked voltage coming to shift motor when ignition is turned on and although I could see voltage coming in, it was only in mV range, not Volts.

 

[telecam]

Update #13 (Day 77): Message from the shop today...

"Hello Terry, I did leave you a message on Monday about what the tech was doing ? He spoke to Honda multiple times on Monday about bike. He has checked everything that they has asked him to check & test and everything is checking out OK. I do have a new tech looking at the bike this time and he is leaning towards an electrical short in the harness. Honda did call again today to have the tech check out another bolt that could be loose. He is off today so I will have him do that 1st thing tomorrow morning."

I am wondering what will happen if they don't find the fault... Dump it?

 

[Nofear2trek]

I do have a new tech looking at the bike this time and he is leaning towards an electrical short in the harness.

When mine wouldn’t stop the flashing bar, dealer too was told it was harness and they replaced it without fixing problem. In the end, they told me after they replaced BOTH tilt sensors, bike was fixed. But originally the bike never left the flashing bar condition, never able to start it because I didn’t know about brake override yet.

Ray

 

[telecam]

Hi Ray, thanks for sharing. So just curious, how many miles did your bike had and what year is it? I did not know about those tilting sensors...

 

[telecam]

One more update from the shop, after asking if they were able to reset the DCT. Last bill was $2,300, I can't imagine what the next one is going to be...

"We were able to reset the DCT, but when the tech put everything together and moved the bike off the center stand it stopped working. The bike is apart now from checking the things that Honda recommended. "

 

[Nofear2trek]

Hi Ray, thanks for sharing. So just curious, how many miles did your bike had and what year is it? I did not know about those tilting sensors...

That was with a previously owned 2012 NC700XD, not sure of the miles at all. Changing BOTH tilt sensors (they had been told to change tilt sensors earlier and changing the outer one didn’t fix problem, then asked about 2nd tilt sensor, they found and replaced it, problem solved) would be easier than an entire harness though. I previously mentioned a separate time a ‘stuck in 1st gear’ problem that was fixed when a shorted rear taillight accessory wire was fixed and then a faulty ‘illume’ 7.5 amp minifuse was replaced (didn’t look bad using eyeballs).

Ray

 

[dduelin]

A single misspoken word or misunderstood phrase lives forever, kind of like the "half a Fit motor" thing. There are no tilt sensors on the NC700XD. One bank angle sensor - but every modern motorcycle has one of those. There are transmission shaft speed sensors, oil pressure and oil temp sensors, wheel speed sensors that control the DCT and other systems. Perhaps one of these got tagged a 'tilt' sensor.

 

[Nofear2trek]

A single misspoken word or misunderstood phrase lives forever, kind of like the "half a Fit motor" thing. There are no tilt sensors on the NC700XD. One bank angle sensor - but every modern motorcycle has one of those. There are transmission shaft speed sensors, oil pressure and oil temp sensors, wheel speed sensors that control the DCT and other systems. Perhaps one of these got tagged a 'tilt' sensor.

Your right, I found these listed on an emailed final work Invoice.

38800-MGS-D21 SENSOR ASSY., ANGLE
38810-MGS-D51 SENSOR ASSY., ANGLE

Adding these last remarks that seemed to fix problem:

‘2/16/16 replace shift spline angle sensor, TR sensor,’

Ray

 

[Nofear2trek]

Full Disclosure - Here are the complete remarks:

———/-/———
2/16/16 replace shift spline angle sensor, TR sensor, wiring harness and ECU.
-test rode unit, unit shift into all gears....AD

12/9/15 REMOVED CLUTCH COVER TWICE TO INSPECTED SHIFT DRUM DETENT STAR. BOLT IS TIGHT -CHECK TRANSMISSION FOR PROPER SHIFTING,SHIFTS WELL....AD

As of 1/13/16 these parts have been replaced: battery, angle sensor, PGM-FI unit, wire harness assy, oil and oil filter
———/-/———

As I stated, only after the last sensor (after harness and other components still didn’t fix problem) was replaced was I informed bike was functioning. After the ‘SHIFTS WELL’ result, test riding 1 block shifting failed again to flashing bar.

Ray

 

[dduelin]

Thanks Ray. I was wrong about the NC having 'tilt sensors' and learned something here. The two angle sensors seem to measure the movement the shift motor makes when the PCM tells it to shift and that it correctly selected the gear the PCM directed. If one of these sensors has a dirty or chafed wire harness connection or has an intermittent fault in the sensor the PCM would fail to shift and/or go into safe mode if it could not ascertain a shift was made - like a missed gear in a manual transmission. I would think a competent Honda service tech would have checked these but who knows. Electrical gremlins are a diagnostic black hole sometimes.

Shifting problems (no shift at all, erratic shifting, or error codes) show up in Honda ATVs that have electric shift or DCT transmissions incorporating similar angle sensors.

 

[Nofear2trek]

I would think a competent Honda service tech would have checked these but who knows.

“by George, I think he got it”, got my fingers crossed.

Ray

 

[rmezei]

So to summarize the whole thread:

1. original battery = check
2. shifter motor = check
3. shifter pin = check
4. angle sensors = check
5. angle sensors harness connections = check
6. ECU unit = check

Did we cover everything ? One of these will hopefully be the culprit!

 

[telecam]

- Oil and filters: Check
- Clutch pack: Check

 

[b_rubenstein]

I would think a competent Honda service tech would have checked these but who knows. Electrical gremlins are a diagnostic black hole sometimes.

Once a system is under computer control, there are no basic electronic instruments for finding a fault. This is why fault codes are stored in a relevant control module and then read out with a code reader. OBD ports have been standard on cars since the '80's, because most mechanics have enough trouble using a Volt/Ohm meter, let alone an oscilloscope or logic analyzer. My Yam FJ-09 had 4-pin connector that could be attached to a Yamaha analyzer, or one could make or buy an adapter to hook up a OBD-II to it. My BMW has standard OBD-II port, but uses a proprietary protocol. I got a $50 Bluetooth gizmo that plugs into it and downloaded a program to my phone that can read the codes, clear codes & run maintenance routines.

I have no idea what Honda is doing with their other bikes, but either they don't store specific DTC related error codes and/or don't have a code reader for it, or they don't require Honda shops to own them. (BMW requires their dealers to purchase a rather large number of special tools.

Bottom line: Honda is selling vehicles that dealers can't reliably diagnose or repair.

 

[showkey]

I have no idea what Honda is doing with their other bikes, but either they don't store specific DTC related error codes and/or don't have a code reader for it, or they don't require Honda shops to own them. (BMW requires their dealers to purchase a rather large number of special tools.

Bottom line: Honda is selling vehicles that dealers can't reliably diagnose or repair.

Let’s correct the bottom line to..........the dealer in this thread can’t reliably diagnose or repair the NC in this post which has an intermittent problem.( But repeating problem)

I would agree you have no idea what Honda is doing with other bikes or their requirements for special tools.
Honda does have their version of a scan tool. It is not an OBD scan tool like the auto side. The NC is also equipped and capable of storing and displaying codes if they are present without a special tool. So a DIY owner can display codes without buying a scan tool. The NC can display about 25-30 codes.

So in general with all these vehicle systems ( auto and bike) ....... Not all problems display a code and so far this bike has not repeatedly coded from the info in the post ? This is also true in the most complex automotive system that might store or display 300-500 codes and still not cover every malfunction. Or display an O2 code or fuel trim code when the real issue is a low fuel pressure. So a code does not mean fix or replace this part and all will be in life. It means a skilled tech is still needed. Yes there are codes like air or coolant temp sensor failures that lead to an exact part and a perfect easy fix with little or no thinking or skill needed.

So backto the bottom line........either this a really tough elusive problem or dealer has a problem that he can’t fix and Honda can not fix over the phone with multiple calls to technical assistance. Theses tech calls means the dealer must do and be capable of understanding what is being asked.

From out distant view point it hard to know or judge what the real issues are.........


To give another example in the auto side..........car comes in on a tow truck, crank no start, dealer checks everything, no codes etc.........calls tech assist. They say check the fuel. They say....we did.....THEY GO ON ........multiple test spending hours and numerous parts etc.
Field engineer shows up days later after the dealer gives .......checks the fuel 10 minutes into the testing........finds 80% diesel mix. Not all problems can be fixed over the phone especially with bad or incomplete or inconsistent information.

 

[lootzyan]

Once a system is under computer control, there are no basic electronic instruments for finding a fault. ...

Of course they are.
Service Manual describes in details how to connect Honda diagnostic devices, readout and interpreted results.
For earlier NC/CTX models it is HDS Pocket Tester and for later ones it is MCS tester.

 

[dduelin]

Honda motorcycles do have diagnostic port connectors, just not industry standard OBD1 or II. My 2005 ST had one and I used it do to reset the check engine FI lamp after certain maintenance procedures and I've seen it used on my NC to plug into Honda proprietary diagnostic software on a American Honda-issued service laptop. We used it to disable the DCT safe mode so my bike could do a dynometer run like a manual NC.

In this case Telecam's bike is apparently not showing a definitive DTC and having spoken to a tech with 21 years of Honda experience not all faults will trigger a stored code - cars, motorcycles and Hondajets. It would be nice though would it not?

 

[b_rubenstein]

The DTC implementation in the NC is probably very reliable and the vast majority of owners never have a problem with it. However, Honda doesn't sell a whole lot of them. It's probably a few thousand a year. I'll bet that most dealers have never had a customer bring in their NC with a DTC problem, and the shop has zero experience trouble shooting DTC's. I have no idea what Honda's policy is regarding required training for dealership mechanics. (When I was the head mechanic at a Yamaha dealer, I had to attend a 2 day training session before they would the then new XS1100 to the dealership.) With continuously declining motorcycle sales with ever increasing electronic technology, manufacturers are going to have to come up with better diagnostic equipment. Detailed procedures in shop manuals won't help most mechanics, and good luck having a Honda field engineer showing up on a dealer's door step.

 

[dduelin]

If I recall the tech training for the new Goldwing DCT was 5 days in Denver.

The fact is that Honda globally has sold a lot of DCT bikes and the company as a whole has lots of data on field reliability. For three years 2012 - 2015 the NC700X was Honda's best selling model in the EC and about 70% were DCT. The 750 is still one of their top three selling models making the 700/750 a top selling model every year since the 2011 release. I don't know for sure but I'd wager that Honda has sold more DCT motorcycles in the last 9 years than BMW has sold in total same period. I would agree that it has not been a big seller in the USA but that's not the case with the Africa Twin, the Goldwing, the Foreman/Rubicon ATV, and the Pioneer SXS models with DCT.

A few months ago a customer with a new Goldwing DCT brought the bike in with an off-idle stalling condition. American Honda was on and off the phone all morning with the dealership and connected software in CA with the bike in FL to diagnose and fix it. Granted, it's a new model and Honda's flagship in the USA.

 

[Erik-in-Denver]

So update #5 I think for me, lol

Bike went into safe mode again Tuesday evening, no issues Wednesday coming or going to work, and then today (Thursday) it faulted on the way home from work.

In summation. It has gone into safe mode while engine was hot and cold, while accelerating and decelerating, and in gears 2,3,4 & 6. Every time I have been able (rather easily) to get the bike out of safe mode, until today. Gears wouldn’t budge... even with rolling it back and forth while button mashing any and all controls....had it towed to Sun Enterprises in Denver..... Now awaiting the fate of my first interaction with their service department, their diagnostics, and recommendations.

Also I have discovered that not only did I use the incorrect oil (the manual specifically says not to use “energy conserving” oils.... the one I used doesn’t mention on the front but only on the API service symbol on the back and calls it “resource conserving” I’m hoping (fingers crossed) that the thinner “energy/resource conserving oil (which is being used by the transmission as well as the engine) is causing it to slip and fault into safe mode. So maybe, just maybe an oil change and a DDNDN calibration will do the trick? Here’s hoping

Sad but Cheers none the less,

Erik,