Lay Down Bike to Avoid Accident?

[Fuzzy]

Thanks for the video Serge. Pretty quick stop on wet pavement with ABS.

 

[pahondafan]

That was an interesting video. I've heard that most motorcycle crashes happen on curves so if that's true it seems that first you have to stand the bike up in order to take advantage of the abs otherwise the tire is not rolling, it's sliding on its edge. I definitely could use more practice doing that but if the obstacle, cow, car whatever is on the outside of the curve I don't see a way to avoid hitting it. (other than being cautious on blind curves, which I try to be)

 

[Fuzzy]

Stand up bike then brake is exactly what is taught in MSF

 

[fratermus]

I also think there will be times when even the best rider won't be able to brake in time. What does he/she do then? Ive been in that type of situation on wet roads moving at a high rate of speed. I'll go as far as saying a bike with ABS would not been able to stop in my situation. What do you do then?

At some point the rider will either stop riding too fast for conditions or will get hurt/killed. Talking generically, not about present company.

 

[SergeantChuck]

Stand up bike then brake is exactly what is taught in MSF

On a corner? When you brake in a corner, which is a bad idea, the bike tends to stand up and steer wide – often the last thing you need. Unless I'm misunderstanding the comment. I have not been to a course in years. I may look for one in the future just for GP.

 

[bamamate]

I've gone into a corner at a, ummm, spirited speed only to have the corner tighten up (decreasing radius). Stood her up while clamping down on the brakes to bleed off 20mph or so and then lean her back in to finish the corner. Granted I did realize I was going too fast to finish the corner before I had pushed out to the center line so I had room to maneuver. I think that is similar to what Fuzzy is talking about.

For a bike with brakes that a good few have complained about, she can drop 20mph quickly when needed.

 

[fratermus]

So we know it's not just armchair quarterbacking: I got to test my emergency braking and avoidance skills today on the way to work in a road rage incident.

IH30 westbound in Rockwall, trundling along at ~speedlimit in the right lane. Following a safe distance from the car in front of me and covering my controls as usual when an SUV comes up on my left at a high rate of speed and jams himself into the spot in front of me. And leans on the brakes HARD so he doesn't slam into the car in front of me. Didn't have time to think, but MSC habits kicked in and I braked smooth and hard. While the brakes bled off speed I noticed he was looking at me in the rearview mirror and gesturing aggressively/manically. Like a seriously unhinged person.

I got past the initial shock and started a more consciously search for a way out. He returned to the center lane and fell back. I didn't have the presence of mind to track where he was, and he soon came up again at a high rate of speed and slowed drastically beside me so we were side by side. I turned my head and he was looking right at me shooting the finger and drifting to the right . Trapped in the right lane, I moved away from him into the right track. He then took off through traffic at a high rate of speed; I observed his license plate number. He pulled a couple hundred yards ahead and finally swept across several lanes to the next exit (Dalrock).

I took the exit after him and called 911. Because of jurisdictional "not mine" games I ended up giving a report to Rowlett dispatch over the phone and met with a Rockwall officer for a personal report, and got an incident number. I was able to give make/model, color, plate, USMC window sticker and description of the driver. Both PDs responded with a shrug.

I went to work and bought a plate lookup; he lives off that exit. His wife owns the car. Pics of her with the car on Facebook. Pics of him on facebook in USMC gear; that's the guy. Posts from her describing him as a disabled vet with "chronic PTSD and depression". His posts are full of threats to physically assault people who have "wronged" him. Basically a time bomb.

I am going to present a citizens complaint against him for a Class C driving misdemeanor. I doubt Rockwall will accept the complaint but who knows.

I do know I am grateful for MSC-stoked good habits.


[edited to add: I did finally figure out what set him off but it was unrelated to traffic or my riding. It appears his motivation was intimidation or vehicular bullying due to a political opinion. I won't volunteer more details on that unless onlookers believe it would be helpful to understanding the context.]

 

[Grey1one]

your best bet to avoid/get away from crazy

I try to use the mindset that - they do see me and want to hit me, so I'm always riding defensively

 

[Fuzzy]

On a corner? When you brake in a corner, which is a bad idea, the bike tends to stand up and steer wide – often the last thing you need. Unless I'm misunderstanding the comment. I have not been to a course in years. I may look for one in the future just for GP.

Here is quote from training.

If you are turning or riding on a curve, attempt to straighten the bike before braking. However, if you simply must stop while leaning, it's best to apply the brakes lightly while reducing the throttle

Also I believe only the front brake will try to stand up the bike?

 

[itlives]

fratermus - I can understand getting angry over politics. I can't understand taking out my anger on a stranger.

Glad you came away unscathed. Also, glad you took the time to report it and the initiative to look him up. Says a lot for your personal drive (no pun)for your own safety.

 

[pahondafan]

Posts from her describing him as a disabled vet with "chronic PTSD and depression". His posts are full of threats to physically assault people who have "wronged" him. Basically a time bomb.

All of us here accept the risk of driving a vehicle that due to physics is inherently unstable and requires a certain amount of awareness and skill to ride, but this idea that more and more drivers are literally trying to kill us and are not just being inconsiderate is unnerving to me. Having experienced it myself two days ago I can tell you that you don't forget it very quickly and it may change the types of roads on which I ride.

 

[Miweber929]

Laying down a bike is never a valid crash avoidance technique unless your are off-road and needs to be taken out of a riders idea of how to deal with a situation that needs emergency reactions. Back in the day when brakes and skills were horrible, poorly trained "riders" used this as an excuse for why they went down instead of saying what really happened which is you couldn't stay upright. It makes zero sense because metal and plastic have very little traction compared to rubber so you're not putting the thing that will stop you the fastest into play.

If you think you can't make the turn the best thing to do is straighten a bike up and scrub as much speed as you can off and simply lean farther. You'd be surprised how far and hard you can lean a bike over before you loose traction enough to low side (effectively "laying the bike down" anyway) and more than likely you'll make it though.

If it's a straight ahead situation look in the direction you want to go around the situation, scrub as much speed as you can using the brakes (or accelerate if that's a better option, it can be often times) and again 95% of the time you'll make it through the situation either without incident or at a much lower impact speed.

Put yourself in the proactive seat and responsible for what's about to happen, don't let situations dictate your outcome. If you find yourself in situations with road ragers often than take a look at your habits and see if you may be doing something that's pissing people off. I know when I'm on the bike I tend to be aggressive with lane changes and will sneak into small gaps if I can and have to stop myself from doing that. It's a bonus for being on a smaller vehicle but cagers don't always like that. Not saying this is what happened to the posters above but honestly take a look at what you could be or could have done, rarely are we innocent 100% in pissing someone off.

Mike

 

[SergeantChuck]

Laying down a bike is never a valid crash avoidance technique unless your are off-road and needs to be taken out of a riders idea of how to deal with a situation that needs emergency reactions. Back in the day when brakes and skills were horrible, poorly trained "riders" used this as an excuse for why they went down instead of saying what really happened which is you couldn't stay upright. It makes zero sense because metal and plastic have very little traction compared to rubber so you're not putting the thing that will stop you the fastest into play.

If you think you can't make the turn the best thing to do is straighten a bike up and scrub as much speed as you can off and simply lean farther. You'd be surprised how far and hard you can lean a bike over before you loose traction enough to low side (effectively "laying the bike down" anyway) and more than likely you'll make it though.

If it's a straight ahead situation look in the direction you want to go around the situation, scrub as much speed as you can using the brakes (or accelerate if that's a better option, it can be often times) and again 95% of the time you'll make it through the situation either without incident or at a much lower impact speed.

Put yourself in the proactive seat and responsible for what's about to happen, don't let situations dictate your outcome. If you find yourself in situations with road ragers often than take a look at your habits and see if you may be doing something that's pissing people off. I know when I'm on the bike I tend to be aggressive with lane changes and will sneak into small gaps if I can and have to stop myself from doing that. It's a bonus for being on a smaller vehicle but cagers don't always like that. Not saying this is what happened to the posters above but honestly take a look at what you could be or could have done, rarely are we innocent 100% in pissing someone off.

Mike

I like a lot of things you have said here. I hope nobody thinks I'm advocating dropping the bike. I can only imagine a couple situations where it would not be preferable to stay upright on the bike, threshold braking vs. "lay the bike down". Your tires can give close to 1G of deceleration. IF an impact is unavoidable, the best outcome is going to be that the impact is at the lowest speed possible - which means using the tires to slow down until the point of impact. The ONLY time it would make sense to deliberately lay the bike down, would be if you knew that a highside was imminent and a lowside was the only other option. Being able to predict that could be next to impossible which is how it was in my situation when I was younger.

 

[caldercay]

All this talk of laying a bike down had me looking around the internet and I found this video. Pretty cool if you've never seen it. Many of you may have.

I'm sorry, but I call bull**** on that video. The rider of the non-ABS bike is not applying the brakes properly, i.e., not modulating the brakes - they simply locked up the brakes. The last minute of that video was a "commercial": "Video footage brought to you by BMW" (let's scare them into upgrading to ABS).

Don't get me rwong, ABS is an awesome upgrade for a bike and ABS certainly does what it's designed to do.

I have been in a number of wet-road (even in pouring down rain) where I've had to execute an emergency stop with positive results (with non-ABS bikes).

 

[Old Can Ride]

I like stopping with the rubber side down. I promise this will always have better stopping results than sliding on metal!

 

[NCJim]

I plan to stay with and on the bike as long as I can. Every bit of velocity I can reduce before ejection makes a huge difference.

It is not the speed that injures and kills. It is the sudden deceleration when impacting an object. i've been through one pretty bad crash. I don't want to hit pavement or another object any faster than I have to. Listening to bones fracture is not a sound I want to hear again!

 

[The_Drifter]

I don't know about the rest of you, but except for one accident, all the others happened so fast, that I really didn't have time to decide what to do. Also, as a FYI, the first thing that hit the ground was my head (Luckily,I always wear a full helmet.).

 

[Hyperborea]

I agree with you that training and practicing a emergency braking procedure is key. I also think there will be times when even the best rider won't be able to brake in time. What does he/she do then? Ive been in that type of situation on wet roads moving at a high rate of speed. I'll go as far as saying a bike with ABS would not been able to stop in my situation. What do you do then?

You stay with the bike and brake as much as possible. You will slow down quicker on the bike than sliding down the road. If it's possible to take an evasive maneuver then you do when possible (and with a reduced speed it becomes more possible - maybe slip between the car and the guard rail in your bridge incident). But maybe it's not and you collide then at least you are doing so at a much lower speed. Even dropping from 50 to 40 mph will drop the energy of the impact to about ⅔ of what it would be. It still won't be good but it will be better than it would otherwise be. If you slide on the road your rate of deceleration will not be as high.

The lack of ABS on the NC700X in the US except on DCT (which I don't think I want) is one that is causing me to think semi-seriously about selling it and moving on to another bike that has it. I like the NC a lot and it made a great return to riding bike but I'm older and feeling a whole lot more mortal than I did when I was riding in my 20's and early 30's.

If you've got ABS then your ability to stop quickly is raised and your speed on impact if unavoidable will be lower than without. I've also got a group buy going amongst some people locally to get an air bag vest to reduce the risk of injury if impact happens.