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Engine Stuttering ??? Advice or Thoughts???

A chap over on the Triumph forum is having problems also. His battery is only showing 11 volts. Perhaps the battery is problematic or has a failed cell ?
 
So in the trouble shooting section of the shop manual, what are all the potential sounding culprits to check that *don't* have a check engine light or efi flashing light code? I'm assuming this is the case, no Christmas lights are flashing on the dash, so in theory, couldn't anything directly associated with one of those be eliminated, or am I bass ackwards in my thinking?

It seems the old standbys Air/Fuel/Spark can have effects without triggering any codes, so I would check the simple non-sensor related things first, like plugs, leads, vacuum lines, bad fuel, fuel starvation (kinked breather hose or canister, stuck valve or solenoid*, clogged or knackered fuel pump, poor electrical connections along the wire routing internal and exterior to pump) poor main ground connection and/or battery connections/state of battery, alternator.

Sometimes it's not just one thing to get caught up focusing on to the point of distraction, but run through the simple bases in a familiarizing pattern of double checking and confirmation as you go along. As you run them down and check them off the list, you can sharpen your pointy stick more and more to finally prod the gremlin out of the works once you corner him.


*I can't recall offhand how complex the emissions set up is on the US bikes; whether or not they have an inline one way electrically operated gizmo for vapours or liquid fuel to or from the pcv hose/charcoal canister in the spaghetti monster of pollution control equipment etc., or not. I don't know how or even if this could effect the problem, but just thought I'd throw it out there in case.
 
My Boulevard did something like this once on a trip to the Keys. Intermittent cutting out, was able to ride it back to Indiana (it would cut out but keep running-but only cut out at any type of bump in the road-plenty on the super slab). I changed the battery, spark plugs, etc.. tracked it down to a loose connection under the gas tank for the EFI module; unplugged all the electrical connections, reconnected and the bike has ran good since (20,000+ miles since the problem).
 
L.B.S. said:
So in the trouble shooting section of the shop manual, what are all the potential sounding culprits to check that *don't* have a check engine light or efi flashing light code? I'm assuming this is the case, no Christmas lights are flashing on the dash, so in theory, couldn't anything directly associated with one of those be eliminated, or am I bass ackwards in my thinking?
Click to expand...
Correct. No indicator lights on dash.
 
Went to dealer this morning. Left my truck there and went for a ride. Was fine for 40 miles then started hesitating and symptoms got worse. Took it back to dealer and mechanic jumped on for a ride. Back after one block, for the first time experiencing the problem. He put a fuel pressure gage on it and went for another ride. Major fluctuations in pressure indicating fuel pump failing. Ordered a fuel pump so hopefully it won't take too long to get. Will be about a grand in cost installed including the troubleshooting time. Too bad I didn't get the extended warranty.

As for the kickstand and duck foot. They had the foot off but before the problems came back I tried pushing down a bit on the kickstand and no impact on engine. When I got back I left it in gear with engine running and lowered the kickstand. It was more than halfway down before it killed the engine. Duck foot will be back on as soon as I get it back. Planning to head for Suches, GA for long weekend so hopefully they get the fuel pump in quick.
 
Ack! :eek: Near a grand for everything once done? Sorry to hear fuzzy :(

I was thinking a pump at 400 bucks +/- wasn't too bad, but I guess with the diagnosing, labour and such, it doesn't take long to add up!
 
L.B.S. said:
Ack! :eek: Near a grand for everything once done? Sorry to hear fuzzy :(

I was thinking a pump at 400 bucks +/- wasn't too bad, but I guess with the diagnosing, labour and such, it doesn't take long to add up!
Click to expand...

With the engine having been running lean with the fuel pump failing I told them to go ahead and replace the plugs. That is $70 of total in parts.

Mechanic spent nearly 4 hours chasing problem and taking for a couple rides yesterday. They are being fair to me on how many hours labor they are charging.
 
Fuel pump failures are rare. If it was my bike, I would be removing the pump to see what it's issue is. Once you bring it in and they tear into it, it doesn't matter what they find the pump is going in. Let's say they find a bad connection at the pump. The pump is still going in. When the part has been ordered and money has been paid by the dealer for shipping and when time has been scheduled for the tech to work on it there is a very high probability the part is going in. Not all service people do this but the majority will.
 
Just a guess from a distance..........the fuel pump assembly will likely fix the problem.

I think the dealer found the problem..........fuel delivery with the pressure test while riding. I am with ruggy on the finding the true cause. It is possible the dealer will completing these checks when disassembled ? But it also could have been done prior to ordering parts ?

Going back to the original post and symptoms .......the problem started after a refueling.

The fuel filter could be likely fouled with what ever was in the last fuel added.
While the labor to be get to the filter is the same the parts saving would be large over the pump.
If the filter is dissected and looks good it then would be a huge risk on not replacing the pump assembly. The pressure regulator is part of the pump assembly . The other risk would be the filter could be bad ( fouled) and what ever made through the system could have damaged both the pump and or regulator. That risk is smaller but still present.

If bad fuel past through the system many Honda's have final screens at the injectors. Not sure if the NC has these final screens but if the pump and filter do not fix the symptoms there can be fuel related junk farther up stream. The fuel filter is designed to capture the junk and will plug or restrict flow so that the first check. NOTE....If the injector screens were fouled the fuel pressure test would have been good.

These comments are meant to second guess the dealers findings. The comments are made from a distance with not all the facts and observations of those working on the bike.
 
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Couple things. First on doing myself it would be outside in a driveway unprotected from weather with current 100 degree temps, and with work schedule and order parts spread over multiple days with bike apart. I am fortunate enough in this stage of life with an empty nest for 20 years I can afford the repair without stretching my budget and I trust the shop I have used for 5 years.

Skeptical it could be fuel filter when it comes and goes. Pressure drops to 10 psi then goes back to 60. Even when at 60 it is not steady. Also don't think fuel filter would wait until bike wars to show a problem. Yesterday rode for 40 miles before symptoms showed.

On the original problem it was 30 miles down the road after fueling for problem to show up. Similar to ride yesterday with 200 more miles on NC. Once the problem shows up it continues to get worse if I keep riding. First time was 40 miles from home. Yesterday was 25 miles from dealer. Mechanic had taken a 30 mile ride with no symptoms.

If wiring it would have to be inside the tank at the pump. Probably less likely than a bad pump.
 
Fuzzy said:
Skeptical it could be fuel filter when it comes and goes. Pressure drops to 10 psi then goes back to 60. Even when at 60 it is not steady. Also don't think fuel filter would wait until bike wars to show a problem. Yesterday rode for 40 miles before symptoms showed.

On the original problem it was 30 miles down the road after fueling for problem to show up. Similar to ride yesterday with 200 more miles on NC. Once the problem shows up it continues to get worse if I keep riding. First time was 40 miles from home. Yesterday was 25 miles from dealer. Mechanic had taken a 30 mile ride with no symptoms.

If wiring it would have to be inside the tank at the pump. Probably less likely than a bad pump.
Click to expand...


Agree ^^^^^^^^^
The filter theory is weak in few places. Plus it has those labor cost that would double if the filter does not fix it.
 
The pump replacement will most definitely fix the problem and I understand not everyone has a place to work on their bike. I wonder how common pump failures are on the NC? You could ask for your old pump back if you want to check it out. Take some pictures of it and post. Im curious what the NC pump looks like.
 
lootzyan said:
Good for you if you can afford repairs by others and avoid needless headache (and heat stroke).:)
By why dealer must change whole pump assembly for ~$400 when is possible that only fuel filter assy. for $31 would be sufficient? Service manual (7-14) shows that pressure regulator is part of filter assy.
Or, maybe problem can be fixed by something so prosaic like replacing O-rings. (look in service manual - I can't insert pictures)

(I tried to insert some pictures - .jpg or .bmp but I'm getting strange message from www.nc700-forum.com:
"This is not valid image file." - on three different browsers)
Click to expand...
I've looked at the manual. Hard to believe the pressure regulator or o-ring would fit the symptoms and to test would require assembly and a long test ride to verify. No ability to test the pressure regulator off the bike. Bad O-ring should be apparent to visual inspection. The symptoms do fit an electrical component that has problems when it warms up. If maintaining power to the pump then the electrical would be internal to the pump.

As my belief supports the mechanics belief that the pump itself is the problem I won't risk additional money and time testing other items unless something is obvious on removal.

I do appreciate all the input and comments. I planned a ride next weekend to the mountains and have to make a decision I believe is right for me at this point in time.
 
Ruggybuggy said:
The pump replacement will most definitely fix the problem and I understand not everyone has a place to work on their bike. I wonder how common pump failures are on the NC? You could ask for your old pump back if you want to check it out. Take some pictures of it and post. Im curious what the NC pump looks like.
Click to expand...

I plan to bring the parts home for my own inspection. I will try to get some pics to post.
 
Fuzzy said:
I called dealer today to check status, Fuel pump on backorder with expected ship date of Friday, so this coming weekend is out for my trip to mountains. :(
Click to expand...

Well that just stinks. I feel for you. Super frustrating when the bike is down due to waiting on parts. Hope it's back up and running soon!
 
Fuzzy said:
I called dealer today to check status, Fuel pump on backorder with expected ship date of Friday, so this coming weekend is out for my trip to mountains. :(
Click to expand...

NOOOOOO! Oh my gosh I hate that. I've got a trip to the Dragon planned for July 16-17. I pray it doesn't fall through.
 
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