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NC750X DCT shift points. Is this normal??

The DCT System is equipped with a feature where the PCM (Powertrain Control Module) tracks the operation parameters and creates trends. The system will "Learn", formulate predictions based on the trends and then create shifting schedules base off your riding style. It may take quite awhile for the bike to gather up all this data to and "Adjust" to your riding style. This all goes in the background without the riders knowledge. I think that's what's going on here. The unit is not "Defective" per say, just does not have enough data if the bike is fairly new and not riding often.

In the beginning NaNCy behaved strangely, similar to a 2 year old child and had a few shifting tantrums in the beginning. As I racked up the miles over a period of time, the bike was more in tune with my thoughts before I could perform those actions. I would prepare to push the "-" button during braking and NaNCy would make the downshift just as I laid my thumb on the button. You just have to give the bike more time to get used to to your riding style and gather all its data. The system will learn and adjust to your riding style.

Here's a link to so more information from Honda regarding DCT from awhile ago, DCT Q&A.

The article you cited contains minimal information about the DCT PCM capabilities. The pertinent info I read in the article is, "Honda's Dual Clutch Transmission features advanced electronic control technologies to achieve smooth and precise acceleration, including a learning function that finds the most suitable start, gear change and running operations for a motorcycle."

From that I don't see any explanation or suggestion that the DCT PCM "tracks the operation parameters and creates trends", or can "formulate predictions based on the trends and then create shifting schedules", as you stated. Since that level of detail is not contained in this article, what publication did you find that describes the theory of operation in such detail? I have not seen one myself.

I could theorize myself that "a learning function that finds the most suitable start, gear change and running operations for a motorcycle" could simply mean the clutch free play is automatically and continuously calibrated much in the way I would keep my clutch cable properly adjusted. But, in the absence of any technical explanation for that phrase, it's meaning is quite ambiguous.

I am an engineer (as you often point out about yourself, Bruce), at least that word is in my job title. I've learned not to take a marketing pitch and attempt to extrapolate a solid theory on how something works. So again, if you can cite a technical publication that describes the details of the DCT learning function to the degree that you have, that would be very helpful.
 
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You must not be an engineer...

That's another piece of nonsense and insulting to any non engineer.
Do I have to be an engineer to see what is technical B.S. Or, if I am, do I have to advertise myself as proof I know something about computer programming?
What about 6-grade french language teacher, with her/his love for motorcycling. Do they have a right to say that, by observation, the "learning" process of their NC DCT is "turned off" or was never there? Or that, it appears that their DSLR camera is much "smarter". Most $150 P&S cameras are more technologically advanced, with child face recognition and Fuzzy Logic deployment.
And this I can see and use.
My DCTs fail me all the time with shifting on "D" mode from third to second and back to third gear, and in many other different situations.
 
The article you cited contains minimal information about the DCT PCM capabilities. The pertinent info I read in the article is, "Honda's Dual Clutch Transmission features advanced electronic control technologies to achieve smooth and precise acceleration, including a learning function that finds the most suitable start, gear change and running operations for a motorcycle."

From that I don't see any explanation or suggestion that the DCT PCM "tracks the operation parameters and creates trends", or can "formulate predictions based on the trends and then create shifting schedules", as you stated. Since that level of detail is not contained in this article, what publication did you find that describes the theory of operation in such detail? I have not seen one myself.

I could theorize myself that "a learning function that finds the most suitable start, gear change and running operations for a motorcycle" could simply mean the clutch free play is automatically and continuously calibrated much in the way I would keep my clutch cable properly adjusted. But, in the absence of any technical explanation for that phrase, it's meaning is quite ambiguous.

I am an engineer (as you often point out about yourself, Bruce), at least that word is in my job title. I've learned not to take a marketing pitch and attempt to extrapolate a solid theory on how something works. So again, if you can cite a technical publication that describes the details of the DCT learning function to the degree that you have, that would be very helpful.

When I as researching the NC700X with the DCT, the supporting documents to my post were plentiful. Now that I am looking for them, they disappeared like a thief in the night.

I know at that documentation did exist, as I did read it. That feature and aspect of the DCT was also briefly explained on a few Honda Marketing videos that I found on YouTube. I could not find them again if my life depended on it.

Trend tracking might be ambiguous, however an algorithm could exist in the PCM that does that function to an marginal degree.
 
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In NC700 DCT from 2012 to 2015 (in U.S. models) there is no driving inclination detection. It's a promise for future models (AT maybe).
Even if it were, that's another parameter to consider and execute in line of code and got nothing to do with "learning".
 
That's another piece of nonsense and insulting to any non engineer.
Do I have to be an engineer to see what is technical B.S.

We are entitled all our own beliefs. Tin foil hats, black boxes, fly saucers, etc...

If you believe that DCT is "BS". Then that is "Your Reality". There's no need to impose that belief onto others.

What I may have recited might have some marketing jargon with an technical twist. For sure there are algorithms being used regardless. Algorithms sounds boring, so marketing might have called them Trend Tracking.

Whatever you call it, Honda will not disclose it fully to the public. We should not expect them to either. They are entitled to their secretes as everyone else is.
 
We are entitled all our own beliefs. Tin foil hats, black boxes, fly saucers, etc...

If you believe that DCT is "BS". Then that is "Your Reality". There's no need to impose that belief onto others.

What I may have recited might have some marketing jargon with an technical twist. For sure there are algorithms being used regardless. Algorithms sounds boring, so marketing might have called them Trend Tracking.

Whatever you call it, Honda will not disclose it fully to the public. We should not expect them to either. They are entitled to their secretes as everyone else is.

Perhaps if you prefaced your technical explanations by saying that's it's your theory or your opinion, and not backed up by published facts, then you would get less push back. Or just say it's, "some marketing jargon with an [sic] technical twist" (your words).

BTW, I'm not imposing any belief on anyone, just asking for background information on your technical explanation of DCT learning functions, which I now understand does not have much basis.
 
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We are entitled all our own beliefs. Tin foil hats, black boxes, fly saucers, etc...

If you believe that DCT is "BS". Then that is "Your Reality". There's no need to impose that belief onto others.

What I may have recited might have some marketing jargon with an technical twist. For sure there are algorithms being used regardless. Algorithms sounds boring, so marketing might have called them Trend Tracking.

Whatever you call it, Honda will not disclose it fully to the public. We should not expect them to either. They are entitled to their secretes as everyone else is.

Something I bet you have heard before but need to hear again.

You are entitled to your own beliefs but not your own facts.


BS_Meter.gif
 
Hi guys, I just registered because I thought I would even the balance against the latest agitated messages..
I just love my NC-750XD! since I am motorcycle-bipolar-extremist, I have very calm days where I even take small roads to work in order to ride in slowlier and more economically, those days I even forget I even have several modes, literally never touch the buttons besides to start and get going, other days...
I am just overtaking because... well because I can... and only in S mode, I specially like the brutal kick when driving in 3rd or 2nd gear and go down one gear (or two) and crank it... you will need to grab your handles hard, and the sound is great, I am not sure if I would need more power, ever in that range and speed... in highway is basically the same principle, wanna ride active? overtake? shift down 1 or twice and crank it...
I must say I have not had more powerful bikes before so maybe that is the "problem", I don't really miss more power... although if you offer me the same bike with 20 more hp I would not say no...why? Why not?
I also take it off the roads and have FUN! I don't take it to really hard dirt (and drive carefully) because I have no engine protections yet, and definitely don't want to pay repairs when I could be buying goodies for my NC instead...
Regarding the learning, well it will learn under a period of seconds when you are driving hard and keep revolutions lower, during, lets say 30 to 40 seconds, which when you are in the twisties is very useful, and that's about it, if you go mellow after that it will get back to normal revolutions according to the mode you are in. So thats my epicurean and less technology-cientific explanation for that.

Great forum, I will stick around and you will here more from me, actually at least some... my greatest addiction is my family and they require a lot of time which I am happy and totally willing to provide


PS:I am not going to apologise for my english, I am not an english native speaking
 
I'm not an engineer, not by a long shot. My totally un-technical impression of the DCT when I first got the bike was when the bike was in Drive and down shifting from second to first it would buck, like it it was about to stall. Hitting the minus button to down shift when the the bike started to shake would fix the behavior. After a while the bike stopped shaking when auto down shifting in Drive. When I had the instrument pod replaced for the second of three recalls for my 2014 bike the bike went back to shaking when rolling to a stop in Drive. Tapping the minus button stopped the behavior and after a while the bike would not shake when coming to a stop in Drive. When the starter solenoid was replaced it started shaking again but it didn't last long. I have absolutely no other info to offer, just my impressions.
 
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I'm not an engineer, not by a long shot. My totally un-technical impression of the DCT when I first got the bike was when the bike was in Drive and down shifting from second to first it would buck, like it it was about to stall. Hitting the minus button to down shift when the the bike started to shake would fix the behavior. After a while the bike stopped shaking when auto down shifting in Drive. When I had the instrument pod replaced for the second of three recalls for my 2014 bike the bike went back to shaking when rolling to a stop in Drive. Tapping the minus button stopped the behavior and after a while the bike would not shake when coming to a stop in Drive. When the starter solenoid was replaced it started shaking again but it didn't last long. I have absolutely no other info to offer, just my impressions.

The followiing are my options regarding the PCM used in the DCT systems.

When I first got the bike and starting riding it. The downshifts from 2nd and 1st gear was very dramatic and violent at times. I started to manually do my downshifts during braking. This seemed to aliveated the issue that you have described.

I believe that PCM has some sort of learning function and over time the system can make predictions regarding when to shift in either direction. Again this my option and from what I perceived over time.

At times the bike would downshift a split second before I can press the "-" button, usually when I place my thumb on the button.

You all will have to formulate your own option regarding this matter and what I have described above.
 

The followiing are my options regarding the PCM used in the DCT systems...

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion" - said Mrs. Cooper to Sheldon
"But mom, there's no learning and that's a fact..." - said Sheldon
"And that is your opinion!" - said Mrs. Cooper

Never argue with Mom from Texas.
End of story.

[video=youtube;opyv8kbhpZQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opyv8kbhpZQ[/video]
 
Originally Posted by Brillot2000 View Post

The followiing are my options regarding the PCM used in the DCT systems...

"Everyone is entitled to their - option- " - said Mrs. Cooper to Sheldon
"But mom, there's no learning and that's a fact..." - said Sheldon
"And that is your opinion!" - said Mrs. Cooper

Never argue with Mom from Texas.
End of story.

[video=youtube;opyv8kbhpZQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opyv8kbhpZQ[/video]

Fixed it for you.
Makes as much sense as ......well.....we have options I guess.........:confused:
 
I have an NC750XD, 2014. It's only a few hundred kilometers driven, but I think the DCT gearbox behaves strangely. If the gas is treated with care, it works beautifully in D mode and responds to +/- switches as well. But if, for example. I want to overtake a speed of 50, and I give rapid gas, then it switch back to fourth grade from five (that's fine), but after overtaking it stucks in the 4th gear at speeds up to 100-120 / 6-7,000 rpm as well and the +/- switches do nothing, they are not respond. This condition persists until I slow down to a speed when the DCT is to be switch down in 3rd. After that it has been operating normally, and it can be instrued by the +/- switches, too. I did not tried with S mode yet. I found a workaround only: if I switch to fully manual mode (MT), then I can override the 4th grade with the +/- switches, then after it is back to AT mode, working fine again until the next overtake... :( Do you have any suggestions or ideas, please?

Just some follow up: the local Honda dealer tested it, and confirmed: something is wrong. :( I left the motorbike in the service on 9th Nov, and I did not see it since then :( They asked the the help of Honda representative after they run out from own ideas. Honda did a lot of measurement, track recording, re-programming, they replaced many parts (whole cable system, sensors, etc.), but they did not find the reason of the strange behavior. I hope they will repair it before summer :D
 
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