Oil Change

[Beemerphile]

At my previous work unit, I had a number of PhDs working for me. I have a BS degree, so they have a whole lot more schooling than I. We were all very close, and worked extremely well as a team. Part of our closeness was a jabbing back and forth. One of my favorite jabs if/when one of them got to being a little 'particular' for my taste about a procedure was that all this 'only change one thing at a time, write down EVERY POSSIBLE aspect of EVERY MINUTE detail of what you're doing, and ISO-9000-style codify it' mumbo-jumbo isn't because doing things that way is 'better,' but because that way even the monkeys could do it. Now, I certainly didn't think they nor any of our people were monkeys, and they knew that, but frankly the general point held up. We needed to make things so specific and so detailed that someone brand-new and utterly inexperienced with what we were doing could at least come in and not screw things up too badly.

And when I wanted to make the eyes roll of the Brainy Smurfs who worked for me, I'd say "Don't tell me what you think, tell me what you know."

Pharmaceuticals and medical devices are not made by monkeys, but would you rather have a hip implant or take a drug made by a scientifically validated method, or by a guy who thought he knew a better way? I recall a number of knee implants that had to be removed from patients because a raw material supplier made an unvalidated change that turned out not so smart. Would you want to fly in a 747 assembled by standard methods, or one where 2,000 assembly guys with their first names on their shirts all knew they were smarter than "the ties"? At what point would you be satisfied that the pilot of your 747 had flown enough that he did not need the checklist any more?

It is true that standard methods can "dumb down" a procedure to a point where less educated (read: cheaper) people can perform it, but that is by far not the only reason to employ them. Though many ways might "work" (or not), there truly is "one best way". In the current discussion, if actual experience shows that the Honda recommended torque of 22 ft.-lbs. is wrong, they can change (and improve) the guidance in an update. For right now, it is the only number with testing behind it that has been shown to work. Will other numbers work? Probably, if they are close. Will guessing work? Maybe. But why would you? How high are the odds that your guess or feel will be better than the tested value?

It is not a 747 or a drug, but it could be a stripped engine case or an oily rear tire. Rack 'em up.

 

[MZ5]

Things such as apprenticeships leading to doing things by feel/touch, sight, taste, etc. are _not_ by nature guesswork, nor are they inherently or necessarily unvalidated. In fact the process I referred to in our lab was well-validated, and proved to be better than alternatives attempted elsewhere.

Whether some who feel a lesser need to be precise, repeatable, and so forth claim to use 'feel' is a separate issue. That approach or attitude is equally likely to result in the sloppy use of a torque wrench, in the present context. Is it better to have a super-tightly and extensively documented method of assembling that 747 that is then sloppily executed, or to have a well-validated and highly repeatable alternative method executed well?

Here again is where the proverbial 'monkeys' come in. For whatever reason, people are much more likely to accept that a procedure is well-executed merely because there's a mountain of paperwork surrounding it. Or, at least they 'feel' like they can understand what they're suddenly assigned to judge. My experience is different. I choose well-executed and repeatable, regardless what route is used to get there.

 

[FlaNC700X]

Good Job, thanks to you I did my 2nd Oil Change at 6600 miles. I used the K&N filter and Mobile 1. I have an oil wrench for this size so had little difficulties. I can say that with the bike on its side stand I drained all the oil. I then popped it on a mobile stand to stand it straight up and it drained another 1/2 cup of oil. Thanks for the video.

 

[n30r3l0ad3d]

Good Job, thanks to you I did my 2nd Oil Change at 6600 miles. I used the K&N filter and Mobile 1. I have an oil wrench for this size so had little difficulties. I can say that with the bike on its side stand I drained all the oil. I then popped it on a mobile stand to stand it straight up and it drained another 1/2 cup of oil. Thanks for the video.

Thanks FlaNC700x. Glad I could be of help.

 

[CMGuy]

Is it better to have a super-tightly and extensively documented method of assembling that 747 that is then sloppily executed, or to have a well-validated and highly repeatable alternative method executed well?

The FAA will nail your hide to the barn door if they find out you're not following the documented process. They come in periodically and specifically to audit each of the models, including the factory, engineering, and the supply chain. Everyone is required to follow the documented process. If there is a better way, document it and implement it. Further, if you don't start out following the documented process you have no baseline to determine if the new process is, in fact, better. If that "well-validated and highly repeatable alternative method" is so great, put in a change request for the process.

As for "sloppily executed" there are, in regulated industries, extensive training programs and, for some processes, those executing them must be certified.

Yes, I know this thread is all about changing one's oil and I even commented about replacing and torquing the drain plug by feel and was "schooled" that I should be using my torque wrench (point taken), there is a huge difference between me over-torquing a bolt as a shade tree mechanic vs. building/servicing an airplane or hip/knee replacement parts or pharmaceuticals, etc.

 

[Mike Cash]

Here again is where the proverbial 'monkeys' come in. For whatever reason, people are much more likely to accept that a procedure is well-executed merely because there's a mountain of paperwork surrounding it.

Are you familiar with the word "gundeck" (used as a verb)?

 

[happy]

I thought this is gonna become the longest OIL THREAD on any motorcycle forum, so here's my 2 cents.

It is so interesting and vivid, that I am gonna change oil on my bike (first time in 3 years).


I am one of those who "feel" the torque when tightening the drain plug back and also hand-tighten the oil-filter.
It works for me.

Oh, and I NEVER changed the crusher (from new) unless some mechanic from a shop (trained one) pancake it too thin. I never do that myself. I pay him to do it.

 

[n30r3l0ad3d]

As I stated before, I know this wasn't done in a nice heated garage with lab coats and shiny new manuals. Set with a proper set of tools and wrenches, to specified torques. I did this to help others out. I did supply proper torque specs in the video though. I used my best judgement, which might not seem logical to some but it is what it is. I hope everyone continues to enjoy my video's, and I will keep updating my channel as time goes on.

1000 miles later, my NC700X still runs with 0 issues since making this video, overkill oil and all

 

[L.B.S.]

As I stated before, I know this wasn't done in a nice heated garage with lab coats and shiny new manuals. Set with a proper set of tools and wrenches, to specified torques. I did this to help others out. I did supply proper torque specs in the video though. I used my best judgement, which might not seem logical to some but it is what it is. I hope everyone continues to enjoy my video's, and I will keep updating my channel as time goes on.

1000 miles later, my NC700X still runs with 0 issues since making this video, overkill oil and all

Whenever I work on something and make a comment about not using a torque wrench, or reusing a "one time use" fastener, an oil plug crush washer, a clip style master link, etc., it's not because I think I know better than anyone else, or the engineers, pro mechanics and so on. I don't take it lightly, nor am I trying to be flippant or blatantly disregard any common sense safety reasonings. Noting something, is not the same as bragging about doing something (or not) as if justifying the irrelevance of intructions or the "correct" methodology for any given task.

I often feel like I'm in that No Man's Land between the *tsk tsk*-ers who advocate nothing but by the book procedural strictness, who can pull up enough formulae and evidentiary stats to choke a horse, proving what they are saying is right, no latitude for argument, and the guys who use old cinder blocks stacked 10 high on edge for jackstands, have a cig hanging out of the side of their mouth while grinding magnesium next to an open gas can, and say: "well I been doin this fer 40 years and aint never been kilt yet."

To be honest laziness does enter into some of my decisions, but for the most part I try my best to balance safety, effort, cost, and opportunity. Some of these go up and down in order of importance depending on my own observations and experiences over time, repeatable conditions and outcomes, access to funds and workplace, and plain old common sense.

I do try to be not too closeminded about learning new tricks or stamping out some of my more fallible tendencies though, honest!

 

[happy]

Not meaning to revive an old thread but...

Bloody drain plug!
It would not budge!
It is turn anti-clockwise to loosen, correct?
It seems stuck!
Or the garage mechanic is again Hercules!!!#!@#!@#

I haven't even tried unscrewing the oil filter yet!

Can someone advise me
1. Unscrew drain plug = anti-clockwise. Correct?
2. Was it that hard to unplug yours? I ran motor for 5 mins and it was hardly warm.

Thanks, I am going to the garage soon...not happy at all today.
I even have the oil filter removal cap ready.

EDIT: Wait a minute, I did not unscrew filler cap. Does it matter that much? I mean this is a small engine case. So it should not make a "vacuum" such that the drain plug is stuck? Right?

 

[dduelin]

Not meaning to revive an old thread but...

Bloody drain plug!
It would not budge!
It is turn anti-clockwise to loosen, correct?
It seems stuck!
Or the garage mechanic is again Hercules!!!#!@#!@#

I haven't even tried unscrewing the oil filter yet!

Can someone advise me
1. Unscrew drain plug = anti-clockwise. Correct?
2. Was it that hard to unplug yours? I ran motor for 5 mins and it was hardly warm.

Thanks, I am going to the garage soon...not happy at all today.
I even have the oil filter removal cap ready.

EDIT: Wait a minute, I did not unscrew filler cap. Does it matter that much? I mean this is a small engine case. So it should not make a "vacuum" such that the drain plug is stuck? Right?

Hey old timer, where you been?

Yes, turn bolts and screws 'righty 'tighty and 'lefty 'loosey.

Good luck!

 

[L.B.S.]

Not meaning to revive an old thread but...

Bloody drain plug!
It would not budge!
It is turn anti-clockwise to loosen, correct?
It seems stuck!
Or the garage mechanic is again Hercules!!!#!@#!@#

I haven't even tried unscrewing the oil filter yet!

Can someone advise me
1. Unscrew drain plug = anti-clockwise. Correct?
2. Was it that hard to unplug yours? I ran motor for 5 mins and it was hardly warm.

Thanks, I am going to the garage soon...not happy at all today.
I even have the oil filter removal cap ready.

EDIT: Wait a minute, I did not unscrew filler cap. Does it matter that much? I mean this is a small engine case. So it should not make a "vacuum" such that the drain plug is stuck? Right?

Hey Happy, long time no see

Sorry it's for a beastly bolt though, lol.

Counter clockwise, correct.

I always crack open the dipstick when draining oil, not to help with undoing the drain plug, more so just to possibly make the emptying quicker, but even then, I'm not entirely sure there's any proven benefit observed by me over the years.

I would warm up the bike a bit longer than 5 minutes.

My drain plug was easy, but my filter was too, despite an overwhelming amount of owners reporting grief at the tightness.

I always use a long lever or "cheater" bar or wrench to undo such bolts when possible, it's amazing what a little bit longer torque multiplication can do.

 

[happy]

I always use a long lever or "cheater" bar or wrench to undo such bolts when possible, it's amazing what a little bit longer torque multiplication can do.

Hi
thanks for the welcome....
nah...i already tried double wrenching , extending the 12mm with a longer ring one.
It just does not wanna budge.
I am going to have a nice talk with the garage owner....this is unacceptable.
I will stop going there for servicing...

 

[L.B.S.]

nah...i already tried double wrenching , extending the 12mm with a longer ring one.
It just does not wanna budge.

Really? I'm talking one of these:

extension



and one of these:



or a piece of this simply slipped over the end of a socket wrench:

 

[happy]

Yes Professor...
I know exactly what you meant.
I don't have a tube extender.
I used another ring wrench and tried to extend the 12mm one by looping it over. Usually that is sufficient.

Anyway I am doing this on the floor on the mainstand, there is very little space left for the wrench unless I have all those 3 parts you showed.

 

[L.B.S.]

Yes Professor...
I know exactly what you meant.
I don't have a tube extender.
I used another ring wrench and tried to extend the 12mm one by looping it over. Usually that is sufficient.

Anyway I am doing this on the floor on the mainstand, there is very little space left for the wrench unless I have all those 3 parts you showed.

Ya, you can't get any decent torque with just little box end wrenches and trying to fiddle with doubling them up. A cheap but workable socket set with extensions can be had for under $20.00 and a short piece of steel tubing should be found nearly anywhere for pennies or even free.

For something as simple as an oil change, I would definitely recommend getting such easily available tools to deal with future attempts. Even if they are just used once or twice, they will pay for themselves and save your blood pressure.

 

[happy]

Ya, you can't get any decent torque with just little box end wrenches and trying to fiddle with doubling them up. A cheap but workable socket set with extensions can be had for under $20.00 and a short piece of steel tubing should be found nearly anywhere for pennies or even free.

For something as simple as an oil change, I would definitely recommend getting such easily available tools to deal with future attempts. Even if they are just used once or twice, they will pay for themselves and save your blood pressure.

True and not true.
Having the right tools is the way to go: TRUE.
Under US$20, such tools do not exist here and if they do, they will break the bolt etc etc...
You may find this unbelievable, but there are NO tubes lying around anywhere here....I am not kidding.

But I agree with you.


I need one of these:

99euros. + shipping

 

[L.B.S.]

Well best wishes no matter which route you take my friend, make sure to give the mechanic an earful and try to see what torque it takes to get the bolt out!

 

[Harald]

Don't take this wrong, but it's not unusual for someone to not take into account that clockwise or counter-clockwise directions are always referenced looking at the head of a bolt. When the bolt is inserted from below, you have to think about which way you want to turn it to loosen it because you're point of reference is now reversed because you are essentially looking at the threaded end of the bolt. It may help to lay on the ground and look up at the bolt to ensure you are trying to turn in in the correct direction. This mistake can happen to the best of us.

 

[SergeantChuck]

Don't take this wrong, but it's not unusual for someone to not take into account that clockwise or counter-clockwise directions are always referenced looking at the head of a bolt. When the bolt is inserted from below, you have to think about which way you want to turn it to loosen it because you're point of reference is now reversed because you are essentially looking at the threaded end of the bolt. It may help to lay on the ground and look up at the bolt to ensure you are trying to turn in in the correct direction. This mistake can happen to the best of us.

You are so right. I work on Caterpillar equipment daily and I still have to orient myself as to what direction to turn fittings because of the angle it may be positioned. I have tried turning them the wrong way many times thinking why is this on so tight. Whooops.