Recommended Chain,Sprocket, and Costs

[MZ5]

Here's Tsubaki's pdf saying/showing that their slip-fit connecting links are NOT lower-strength than the rest of the chain:

http://tsubaki.eu/assets/CAT1_ENG logo.pdf

To re-state my minor point for clarity: The fact that D.I.D. explicitly says that they sell weak master links does not suggest or imply that all companies' master links are similarly weak. To assume anything else is a logical non sequitur.

To the extent that e-commerce sites can be relied upon to provide accurate technical information (my confidence is highly variable in such matters), here's a seller's web page which suggests that BikeMaster also does _not_ suffer from D.I.D.'s apparent deficiency:
525 Master Link at Chaparral Motorsports

A clip link being suitable is a different question. Motorcycle chains typically don't fail exceeding breaking strength. Our engine won't put 5000 pounds of pull on the chain. Use a clip link and you should be fine with proper care and maintenance.

We certainly agree here, and for me this remains the major point.

 

[L.B.S.]

Well that was a fascinating little insight into chain stuff in the Tsubaki PDF, thanks MZ5

I love this kinda thing, lol

 

[duk2n]

Very interesting lecture, MZ5. Those guys have a chain for every application

 

[L18flyboy]

For those who do use the clip type master link, it should be a routine part of your bike inspection to visually verify that
the master link's retaining clip is still in place. Unfortunately I think many people don't give it much thought after the
new chain is on the bike, particularly if it was installed at the shop rather than by the owner.

In my mind the weak link (sorry couldn't resist) is not the master link itself, but the retaining clip that holds the master link
together. I've gone through a few chains on other bikes (haven't changed the NC's yet) and make a point of using safety
wire to secure the clip to the link. The only chain I've had where the master link failed was on an airplane tug where the
retaining clip was not safety wired -- after it let loose I found all of the master link parts except the clip and have no idea
how long it was missing. I did once notice a friend's bike was lacking the master link clip which he was sure
had been properly installed many miles earlier... basically the master link was now a time bomb waiting to work loose
without the clip present. If desired I can post some photos showing how to do this.

 

[showkey]

... basically the master link was now a time bomb waiting to work loose
without the clip present. If desired I can post some photos showing how to do this.

The time bomb part .............. can be said for the riveted link as well when it is not done correctly because of wrong tools, wrong technique and or poor skills. Boogered riveted links were far more common in the shop than missing clips or any other chain problem. Boogered is the technical term for too tight and too loose links when pressed and improper peen on the rivets (including too much or not enough peen).

 

[Hot Wing]

Two thousand total miles on the bike. I just cleaned and checked my chain adjustment. After 1000 mi. the stock chain stretched 2mm.

It will be a while before I need a chain and sprockets. I'll be looking for high quality stock sprocket sizes, and a strong light weight chain, when the time comes. The I expect a light chain will help with shifting feel.

In my own opinion, the bike does not have sufficient power to handle higher gearing.

Maybe an NC750X could pull higher gearing?

 

[StratTuner]

Beemerphile, you are much loved. Don't stifle yourself because someone said you talk too much.

Thanks for educating me about chains and sprockets. I can now buy confidently, thanks to you, and in years ahead when someone asks what I know, I will tell them and remember who I learned it from.

best wishes.

 

[turbodieseli4i6]

The time bomb part .............. can be said for the riveted link as well when it is not done correctly because of wrong tools, wrong technique and or poor skills. Boogered riveted links were far more common in the shop than missing clips or any other chain problem. Boogered is the technical term for too tight and too loose links when pressed and improper peen on the rivets (including too much or not enough peen).

On the other side of the fence. Where I work, we have Rytec doors that have roller chains on them with the clip style master links. I bet I replaced at least a dozen of those things because they failed. + a lot of chain failures. FWIW, these have been run hard and put up wet. They get slammed forward then reversed (Well over a million cycles.) A motorcycle chain has a easy life compared to those doors.
If my *** is on the line, I'll trust my rivet M/L. Don't have a problem carrying a clip style and a couple of spare links for an emergency though. Wire tie back up is also a plus. We don't have very many boogered rivet style M/L's on those, because its a pita to put them on where they're located.
So far I haven't had any cotter pin or rivet M/L's fail unless the chains were used up. JMHO

 

[Old Can Ride]

"Boogered is the technical term for too tight and too loose links when pressed and improper peen on the rivets"

Showkey is correct, installing rivets takes time to learn. You can have the right equipment, but it still can be installed incorrectly. Beemerphile is correct in that it is stronger. However, It just takes time to learn the fell of this. That is why for "the average do it your self motorcyclist" I do like Fuzzy's idea of the slip clip. I have put thousands of miles on bikes with the slip clips, and never had one come off yet.

 

[Beemerphile]

Showkey is correct, installing rivets takes time to learn. You can have the right equipment, but it still can be installed incorrectly.

I can see where the wrong one done right may be better than the right one done wrong. I don't see where the right one done right is not still the correct choice. ("Right" and "wrong" judged by the majority of chain and bike manufacturers' recommendations).

If you can't do it right you can have it done, but it is not rocket science and anyone with normal dexterity can get there. There is nothing so simple that it cannot be (and is not done) wrong. The parts are assembled in the correct order... The outside plate is pressed on to the spacers or to the correct measured spacing... The rivets are expanded (usu. .008 -.012) with the proper tool... Done. Even Tsubaki, who has mastered the 100% strength clip link recommends a pressed on sideplate for high speed use. It is the wayward clip and not the strength reduction that usually gets you. Once you need a pressed-on sideplate, you are 90% to the riveted link procedure and need the tool and a bit of skill. A pressed on sideplate with a clip can still lose a clip. However, often it will stay together until you notice your missing clip on a pre-ride inspection. You do those, don't you? Why not make the problem go away? Why not pick up an easy but useful skill?

I have put thousands of miles on bikes with the slip clips, and never had one come off yet.

My dad smoked for 35 years and never got cancer. Until he did.

(I guess like Ron White, I have the right to remain silent but not the ability)

 

[StratTuner]

I'm not taking sides on link vs rivet, but I'm hoping the new set up comes with rivet...

Bicycle chains (my only real experience) don't have a master link. All links are master links. You use the chain tool to put out one of the pins to disconnect the chain, then you push in a longer pin that with the same tool that has a pre-engineered snap off point. Once the longer pin in in place, you snap off the excess, and it's all back together.

It makes me think that snapping off the excess (at the predesigned point) has the same effect as the rivet. It causes that end to be deformed so it won't slip through the link. Hm... I wonder..

 

[Beemerphile]

It makes me think that snapping off the excess (at the predesigned point) has the same effect as the rivet. It causes that end to be deformed so it won't slip through the link. Hm... I wonder..

No-one has mentioned it on this thread yet, but there is a snap-off type link for motorcycle chains. It screws on first rather than being pressed...

[video=youtube;gmg1TFsFNO4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmg1TFsFNO4[/video]

 

[MZ5]

On the other side of the fence. Where I work, we have Rytec doors that have roller chains on them with the clip style master links. I bet I replaced at least a dozen of those things because they failed. + a lot of chain failures.

You must be using D.I.D.'s deficient master links!

Seriously, though, I've certainly had master links (of any type) that stretched and/or wore much more quickly than the general chain. Routine checks catch that, fortunately. We had a spell where one of our main parts suppliers was changing and mixing chain sources/brands almost constantly, trying to contain costs, and it was a big mistake. As Beemerphile has pointed out, some companies market crappy master links.

It's interesting to hear your experience with cotter pin masters, too. We always HATED those; the cotter pins invariably broke during heavy-handed install, or broke or just plain fell out during operation. It's not that hard for the pin legs to catch something and bend or break in that environment. Agricultural use, like dirt bike use (and to a much lesser extent street bikes), presents a dramatically harsher operating environment than most everything else combined, from all the dirt, rocks, sand, shock loading, and general crap.

I'm not taking sides on link vs rivet, but I'm hoping the new set up comes with rivet...

I no longer recall which chain you bought, but D.I.D.'s VX2 series of 520-pitch chain comes with a clip-type master. Apparently even D.I.D., who markets significantly deficient master links, has no qualms about us using them on a motorcycle.

 

[Beemerphile]

I no longer recall which chain you bought, but D.I.D.'s VX2 series of 520-pitch chain comes with a clip-type master. Apparently even D.I.D., who markets significantly deficient master links, has no qualms about us using them on a motorcycle.

At Sprocket Center, the VX chain comes with a clip link. The VX2 comes with your choice. The ERV3 comes with a rivet link. As the chain quality goes up, the default goes from clip, to either, to rivet.

 

[bamamate]

How can one identify the master link on the stock chain? Is it marked somehow?

 

[L.B.S.]

How can one identify the master link on the stock chain? Is it marked somehow?

I could be wrong, but I believe the stock chain is considered "endless", which means it has no specifically pointed out master link. You may be able to suss out which one of them it is, but you're on yer own there, lol

 

[MZ5]

At Sprocket Center, the VX chain comes with a clip link. The VX2 comes with your choice. The ERV3 comes with a rivet link. As the chain quality goes up, the default goes from clip, to either, to rivet.

I was going by D.I.D.'s catalog, which says that the VX2 comes with a clip. Sprocket Center will let you choose pretty much whatever combo you want with a vast array of chains. I also notice in D.I.D.'s catalog that, while the ERV3 chain is rated at a slightly higher tensile strength, it is rated at a lower wear-resistance/lifespan. So clearly 'quality' is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[MZ5]

How can one identify the master link on the stock chain? Is it marked somehow?

It's very easy on my stock chain because the master link is a hollow-pin rivet-type. So, the flared ends of the master link pins look very different from the staked ends of the pins on the rest of the chain. It also looks like the rivet job was 'hastily' done.

**EDIT** This chain of mine may be a dealer replacement under the chain recall; IDK.

 

[L.B.S.]

It's very easy on my stock chain because the master link is a hollow-pin rivet-type. So, the flared ends of the master link pins look very different from the staked ends of the pins on the rest of the chain. It also looks like the rivet job was 'hastily' done.

**EDIT** This chain of mine may be a dealer replacement under the chain recall; IDK.

Yup, I would take that as evidence that the "true" stock chain was one of the recall jobbies, and that your present "stock" chain was a dealer installed replacement.

Before I even bought my bike, I knew all about the recall thing (thanks to this awesome Forum ) when the Honda dealer didn't even know about it. I crawled around on the floor and looked at the chain link by link, discovered it was a recall needing version, and saw no discernible master link.

 

[StratTuner]

You must be using D.I.D.'s deficient master links!

I no longer recall which chain you bought, but D.I.D.'s VX2 series of 520-pitch chain comes with a clip-type master. Apparently even D.I.D., who markets significantly deficient master links, has no qualms about us using them on a motorcycle.

Sprocket Center replied to an email and said they were sending the rivet type.

I ordered the DID 520 VX2 series X'ring Chain - GOLD COLOR (750cc rated).

Looking forward to the feel of new sprockets and chains.

Sprocket Center also wrote to say:

Just so you also know, the front sprockets needed for this kit are currently out of stock. We don't expect them until about the 15th of the month.

Their customer service seems pretty good.