Renewed appreciation for DCT

[MZ5]

I've been running Red Line's 10W30 motorcycle oil for ~15,000 miles now, and the bike has had a 'synthetic' oil of one sort or another for nearly all of its 39,000+ mile life. Synthetic doesn't cause trouble, if you want to run it.

 

[670cc]

We were discussing the merits of DCT, then this became the dreaded oil thread. How does that happen? Just put in what the Honda owner's or service manual calls for. The specs are defined, but if anyone does not understand the specs in the manual, we can help with that.

If somehow you think Honda's engineers are wrong, then you're on your own. We all know it can never be settled on a forum.

 

[Old Can Ride]

We were discussing the merits of DCT, then this became the dreaded oil thread. How does that happen? Just put in what the Honda owner's or service manual calls for. The specs are defined, but if anyone does not understand the specs in the manual, we can help with that.

If somehow you think Honda's engineers are wrong, then you're on your own. We all know it can never be settled on a forum.

92,000 miles, now when is my first oil change??????????????????????????? Do I need to change the filter?????????????????????????????? When will folks ever learn that oil is oil, and yes they all can be mixed ! I'm cheap, so I use the cheapest Wal-Mart has on the shelf.

 

[dduelin]

Two clutches now, or three OCR?

 

[the4Dman]

5 clutches) 2 in transmission, 2 hands clutching the handlebar, and one clutching his chest, after he sees the bill.....

oh wait, that's 3 hands...

NEVERMIND

 

[L.B.S.]

hahahahaha

 

[bvogel7475]

I'll still ocassionally reach for the clutch lever. I do sometimes wish I could put the bike in neutral and coast up to the light. That would be a cool (probably too costly) thing that Honda could add. Can only do that if you have a manual clutch for the moment.

 

[bvogel7475]

Nice comment old man can ride. I agree, any oil sold in a reputable store is fine unless you ride like a maniac and race your bike around the track. You might run into oil breakdown if you did that, but that is even unlikely. I do run synthetic in my V-6 cars because I like to stretch the miles between oil changes a little longer because I do the work myself and I am a little lazy.

 

[bvogel7475]

OK enough oil talk. I need new tires. Time to go to the Tire thread.

 

[Deleted member 4372]

I'm the one who asked about oil vis a vis the DCT.
I just read over the previous owner's maintenance records, all done at a Portland, OR dealer. The dealer put in Castrol, non-synthetic. I'm willing to use whatever oil makes the DCT both happy and as quiet as possible. I too wear ear plugs, yet I can hear the clunk and click. And, to compound things, I don't know what "normal" is for the DCT. Chances are I'm concerned about nothing; i.e. My bike is " normal."
I like the idea above that on a standard bike the noise and clunk is expected when the left hand and foot do their thing, and the DCT doesn't telegraph like hand and foot do. Could be the best answer. AKA it's all in my head!

 

[670cc]

I'm the one who asked about oil vis a vis the DCT.
I just read over the previous owner's maintenance records, all done at a Portland, OR dealer. The dealer put in Castrol, non-synthetic. I'm willing to use whatever oil makes the DCT both happy and as quiet as possible. I too wear ear plugs, yet I can hear the clunk and click. And, to compound things, I don't know what "normal" is for the DCT. Chances are I'm concerned about nothing; i.e. My bike is " normal."
I like the idea above that on a standard bike the noise and clunk is expected when the left hand and foot do their thing, and the DCT doesn't telegraph like hand and foot do. Could be the best answer. AKA it's all in my head!

The DCT transmission is very much like the manual. It has six meshed gear sets that are engaged via sliding shifting forks. The clutches and shift drum are activated not by the rider but by computer controlled actuators, yet the mechanics are all the same. It is supposed to click and clunk, although it should do so as if operated by an expert rider.

Oil is just oil as long as it meets the specs, and the recommendation for what type to use is in the Honda operator manual. One exception is that the operator manual calls for 10w-30 only, whereas the service manual also specs 10w-40. The 10w-40 is not any better, but it is easier to find in stores in the JASO MA spec.

 

[dduelin]

The DCT transmission is very much like the manual. It has six meshed gear sets that are engaged via sliding shifting forks. The clutches and shift drum are activated not by the rider but by computer controlled actuators, yet the mechanics are all the same. It is supposed to click and clunk, although it should do so as if operated by an expert rider.

Oil is just oil as long as it meets the specs, and the recommendation for what type to use is in the Honda operator manual. One exception is that the operator manual calls for 10w-30 only, whereas the service manual also specs 10w-40. The 10w-40 is not any better, but it is easier to find in stores in the JASO MA spec.

10w30 would allow the engine to have slightly better fuel economy as compared with 10w40. Could you measure it in day to day use? Probably not unless the two were measured using the same EPA test cycle. In order to meet mandated corporate average fuel economy figures vehicle manufacturers moved over time from 10w30/10w40s to 5w30s, 5w20s and even some 0w20 specifications at present because lower operating viscosity oils give 1-3% better fuel economy.

 

[MichaelJohn]

...yet I can hear the clunk and click. And, to compound things, I don't know what "normal" is for the DCT. Chances are I'm concerned about nothing; i.e. My bike is " normal."
I like the idea above that on a standard bike the noise and clunk is expected when the left hand and foot do their thing, and the DCT doesn't telegraph like hand and foot do. Could be the best answer. AKA it's all in my head!

I like the clunk and click. It's a motorcyle with real gears, not a scooter!

 

[670cc]

10w30 would allow the engine to have slightly better fuel economy as compared with 10w40. Could you measure it in day to day use? Probably not unless the two were measured using the same EPA test cycle. In order to meet mandated corporate average fuel economy figures vehicle manufacturers moved over time from 10w30/10w40s to 5w30s, 5w20s and even some 0w20 specifications at present because lower operating viscosity oils give 1-3% better fuel economy.

I track my fuel economy closely and I ride largely with the challenge of getting good economy (not because I need to but just because I like to). My NC started with 10w-30. After switching to 10w-40, I could not measure any difference. If there was better economy with the 30, as there theoretically should be, any savings would be negated by having to pay more for the 30 oil at Honda vs what I paid for the 40 at Walmart.

 

[dduelin]

I track my fuel economy closely and I ride largely with the challenge of getting good economy (not because I need to but just because I like to). My NC started with 10w-30. After switching to 10w-40, I could not measure any difference. If there was better economy with the 30, as there theoretically should be, any savings would be negated by having to pay more for the 30 oil at Honda vs what I paid for the 40 at Walmart.

What brand 10w40 do you use?

 

[670cc]

What brand 10w40 do you use?

I've run through almost three cases of Valvoline Mototorcycle (conventional) 10w-40 for the motorcycle/scooter fleet. There were some deals ($3) and rebates a while back at Autozone but that's long since over. Walmart sold it regularly for $3.98, but I have a feeling they have just stopped carrying it this spring. I have been buying up stock as I find it but it's about all gone now. However, due to Walmart incompetence on the store pick up deal, I did score a few bottles of the Valvoline synthetic for the price of the mineral oil.

 

[dduelin]

I've run through almost three cases of Valvoline Mototorcycle (conventional) 10w-40 for the motorcycle/scooter fleet. There were some deals ($3) and rebates a while back at Autozone but that's long since over. Walmart sold it regularly for $3.98, but I have a feeling they have just stopped carrying it this spring. I have been buying up stock as I find it but it's about all gone now. However, due to Walmart incompetence on the store pick up deal, I did score a few bottles of the Valvoline synthetic for the price of the mineral oil.

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Cool. I'll keep an eye out.

 

[670cc]

Cool. I'll keep an eye out.

I did some more research and find that Walmart will ship it to your store of choice for free as long as you spend $50 (13 bottles of oil).

 

[Whiteknuckle]

lol. 4 posts on DCT appreciation and 5000 on what oil is best. love the interwebs

 

[Mi_ka]

I like the idea above that on a standard bike the noise and clunk is expected when the left hand and foot do their thing, and the DCT doesn't telegraph like hand and foot do. Could be the best answer. AKA it's all in my head!

From what I recollect, the DCT specifics dictate that the ECU-TCU combo control box looks at the oil pressure/temperature after the oil pump as well as pressure in each clutch oil circuit etc and assesses the clutch rate of engagement (which implies it also assesses clutch wear and oil slippage) by looking at shafts/clutches rotating speeds (common policy for decades with car TCUs as well).
So whatever may be the oil, the system is supposedly shelf adjusting for optimum shifts unless the shift drum actuating motor/oil valves/gear # sensor is not operating as fast as specified (but not too slow for the TCU to throw a CEL and go into limb mode) or if the clutch baskets become engraved by the disks due to some not normal issue (a guy on the UK side had been riding with obviously abrupt gear changes for thousand of miles hoping the issue would go away each time he had the dealer look at it in vain - I would not be surprised if his original maybe electrical issue later became engraved on the clutches becoming a permanent problem but he did not report back so who knows...).

The DCT brains can be as good as its sensors/actuators. Maybe an acoustic sensor could be incorparated by Honda with some extra parameters to trim for optimum acoustic changes as well