DCT is NOT automatic transmission...

[670cc]

There are four types of transmissions: 1) manual, 2) automatic, 3) CVT and 4) semi-automatic and dual clutch. Therefore, a DCT is a type of semi-automatic transmission. It's a manual transmission fitted with two clutches.

But wait. A CVT on a typical scooter is an automatic transmission. It has a clutch that engages and disengages automatically upon starting and stopping. It has a belt/pulley drive system that automatically varies the ratio between the engine output shaft and the rear wheel. That sounds fully automatic to me. CVT falls under the automatic “type.”

The Honda DCT will engage and disengage the drive to the rear wheels automatically when starting and stopping. The transmission also automatically engages the gear set as needed for the proper ratio between the engine and rear wheel. It does all of this with no operator intervention. It sounds like it’s fully automatic to me, not semi automatic.

If you define the DCT as “a manual transmission fitted with two clutches”, what defines that transmission as “manual?” Do people think because it has paired gear sets as opposed to planetary gears, that it’s a “manual?” If so, I don’t see how the gear arrangement defines a transmission as manual or not manual. What’s important is whether the transmission operates with or without a required interaction with the operator.

 

[anglachel]

My electric car is sold as being an automatic... but it never changes gears at all (even reverse is just the motor running backwards)

Generally speaking I feel like the term "automatic" and "manual" refer to the intervention needed from the driver/rider.

If you want to talk in terms of engineering there are clearly more descriptive terms... like CVT or DCT or Electro Hydraulic transmission... but most people aren't engineers, and even engineers just want to know if they know how to operate the vehicle...

 

[TacomaJD]

But wait. A CVT on a typical scooter is an automatic transmission. It has a clutch that engages and disengages automatically upon staring and stopping. It has a belt/pulley drive system that automatically varies the ratio between the engine output shaft and the rear wheel. That sounds fully automatic to me. CVT falls under the automatic “type.”

The Honda DCT will engage and disengage the drive to the rear wheels automatically when starting and stopping. The transmission also automatically engages the gear set as needed for the proper ratio between the engine and rear wheel. It does all of this with no operator intervention. It sounds like it’s fully automatic to me, not semi automatic.

If you define the DCT as “a manual transmission fitted with two clutches”, what defines that transmission as “manual?” Do people think because it has paired gear sets as opposed to planetary gears, that it’s a “manual?” If so, I don’t see how the gear arrangement defines a transmission as manual or not manual. What’s important is whether the transmission operates with or without a required interaction with the operator.

We're not so different in thought, you and I.

You are exactly right, user interaction is what defines automatic / manual. Just like a fully automatic firearm fires continuously with one pull of the trigger, and a semi automatic firearm fires once per every trigger pull. So, in D and S mode, the DCT is Automatic.....can't argue that, no matter if it changes gears and how it does it, it's automatic...twist gas and go. When in manual mode, since having an automatic clutch, using the paddle shifters it then becomes semi-automatic, because it changes a gear per each button push.

I don't know how this can be so highly debated. The DCT trans is automatic with a semi-automatic option. Pretty simple, really.

 

[Afan]

... i.e. eliminate AT/MT switch (leave it on AT mode), eliminate D-S mode switching, leave N-D mode and eliminate +/- shifting.
And here you have it - a fully automatic motorcycle....

Or... Eliminate D-S and M-T switches and leave +/- shifting. Now you HAVE to change gears by yourself, right? Does it still count as "automatic"?!?

 

[Afan]

Wait, we're all correct. This debate is not about what it is, it's about what category you want to put it in. Categories can be defined in general terms or more specific terms.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Exactly my point. If it is "automatic", and a scooter is "automatic" too, does then NC/AT/... belong to the same group as scooters?!?

 

[lootzyan]

Would you also classify an electric motorcycle as a scooter? Fully automatic. No engine and no transmission.

 

[Afan]

Or... Eliminate D-S and M-T switches and leave +/- shifting. Now you HAVE to change gears by yourself, right? Does it still count as "automatic"?!?

Or, let's say (it probably already exists, I don't know...) you have a bike where you don't need to pull the clutch lever to change a gear with your leg. Actually, let's imagine there is no clutch lever at all. Only "action" to change a gear is your leg movement up and down.
Would it be considered automatic?

I think my "problem" is actually not HOW the gearbox works and HOW is it engineered, rather HOW am I interacting with it. If I can change a gear to one I want (and that's how I ride my NC most of the time) then it's not automatic. If I can't change a gear, like scooters, then it IS automatic.

In case someone thinks I have some kind of "compensating" issues and/or "automatic" is hitting my ego - I call my NC "red littl' scooter" because I find it funny.

 

[Afan]

Would you also classify an electric motorcycle as a scooter? Fully automatic. No engine and no transmission.

Ok, you're right. My logic is bad.
I mean, gearwise it is "scooter-ish/moped-ish" because you don't change gears (there is no gears to be more precise), right? But my logic fails because to call a bike scooter there are other rules too...

Please disregard my post #25!

 

[Red Rider]

Fascinating topic. This must drive Marketing Departments absolutely crazy.

 

[Junkie]

Or... Eliminate D-S and M-T switches and leave +/- shifting. Now you HAVE to change gears by yourself, right? Does it still count as "automatic"?!?

In that case it's absolutely (to the user) automatic, even though it's a computer controlled manual.

Or, let's say (it probably already exists, I don't know...) you have a bike where you don't need to pull the clutch lever to change a gear with your leg. Actually, let's imagine there is no clutch lever at all. Only "action" to change a gear is your leg movement up and down.
Would it be considered automatic?

I think my "problem" is actually not HOW the gearbox works and HOW is it engineered, rather HOW am I interacting with it. If I can change a gear to one I want (and that's how I ride my NC most of the time) then it's not automatic. If I can't change a gear, like scooters, then it IS automatic.

In case someone thinks I have some kind of "compensating" issues and/or "automatic" is hitting my ego - I call my NC "red littl' scooter" because I find it funny.

You can buy dirtbikes with auto clutches, and Rekluse makes auto clutches for most dirtbikes and a few streetbikes.

If you have to manually shift, but not clutch, I'd call it a semi-automatic transmission. Or maybe just an auto clutch.

 

[anglachel]

Fascinating topic. This must drive Marketing Departments absolutely crazy.

Marketing departments don't need to worry about technicalities, and only worry about reality as much as the legal department says they are required to.

 

[Afan]

If you have to manually shift, but not clutch, I'd call it a semi-automatic transmission. Or maybe just an auto clutch.

Back to my example, where you have only +/- paddles, no D/S and A/T switches, and you HAVE to manually shift - it's now semi-automatic?!?

 

[Afan]

From Wiki: "... A dual-clutch transmission (DCT) (sometimes referred to as a twin-clutch transmission or double-clutch transmission) is an automated automotive transmission, closely related to a manual transmission. It uses two separate clutches[1] for odd and even gear sets. It can fundamentally be described as two separate manual transmissions with their respective clutches contained within one housing, and working as one unit.[2][3] Although usually operated in a fully automatic mode, many also have the ability to allow the driver to manually shift gears in semi-automatic mode,[1] albeit still using the transmission's electrohydraulics..."

Dual-clutch transmission - Wikipedia

 

[670cc]

Fascinating topic. This must drive Marketing Departments absolutely crazy.

I’m sure it does. Honda marketing is probably very selective about their wording. For example, if “scooter” carries a stigma amongst the target audience for the machine, they have to be careful to avoid the word. But for another potential market segment, “scooter” might be seen as attractive. I guess it’s about doing your research and understanding your audience. As for the DCT, my impression was that Honda marketing initially avoided the use of the descriptor “automatic”, to keep from alienating a section of their target audience. Now I think the opposite is true, such that they are openly calling the DCT an automatic, perhaps to attract that new, younger buyer the motorcycle industry seeks. That buyer may see “automatic” as a positive attribute, unlike an older, experienced rider that might see it in a “not a real motorcycle” fashion.

 

[TacomaJD]

Exactly my point. If it is "automatic", and a scooter is "automatic" too, does then NC/AT/... belong to the same group as scooters?!?

No it does not. It would be ridiculous to classify it as a scooter simply based on the transmission alone.

This ridiculousness is precisely how we've arrived at a time where gender is commonly debated and subject to change.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[TacomaJD]

In that case it's absolutely (to the user) automatic, even though it's a computer controlled manual.You can buy dirtbikes with auto clutches, and Rekluse makes auto clutches for most dirtbikes and a few streetbikes.

If you have to manually shift, but not clutch, I'd call it a semi-automatic transmission. Or maybe just an auto clutch.

And there are quickshifters available for almost every bike made where a pressure sensor on the shift lever activates when shifting gears and it interrupts the ignition for a split second so the rider can effectively shift gears up or down without using the clutch while the engine isn't under load. They should have just just called them super semi automatic clutchless EZ shifters....of course, I'm having a little fun with this. Lol "turn yer manual trans into an automatic with the plugging in of a switch!"

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[Afan]

No it does not. It would be ridiculous to classify it as a scooter simply based on the transmission alone.

This ridiculousness is precisely how we've arrived at a time where gender is commonly debated and subject to change.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Hey! I admitted I was wrong! Don't kick a man when he's down!

 

[TacomaJD]

Hey! I admitted I was wrong! Don't kick a man when he's down!

I'm just here to heckle LOL

 

[MZ5]

From Wiki: "...is an automated automotive transmission, closely related to a manual transmission... It can fundamentally be described as two separate manual transmissions..."

Perhaps the writer of that bit is unaware that this is the basic design of all Honda automotive automatic transmissions for decades (prior to their current 10-speed ATs). Honda’s automatics have always looked internally like their manuals, with a torque converter up front and some clutches instead of synchros. They’re very much an ‘automated manual’ design, as opposed to the planetary gearsets in most all other automotive automatic transmissions.

This kind of nonsense is exactly why 670’s and TacomaJD’s point of view is the only thing that makes even a tiny bit of sense.

 

[Dennis M]

I find this whole discussion rather hilarious, It's a automatic, No it's not, yes it is, no it's semi automatic, blah, blah, blah.

If you don't HAVE to shift it either with your hand or your foot or some other part of your body, even if there is the option to do so, It's an automatic, no matter if it's a torque converter, CVT, or DCT.

If you have to shift it manually either with or without a clutch, like on a Honda Cub, then it's a manual.

Just my opinion, now you can all tell me how wrong I am Let the heckling begin.