DCT is NOT automatic transmission...

[Canbo]

But wait. A CVT on a typical scooter is an automatic transmission. It has a clutch that engages and disengages automatically upon starting and stopping. It has a belt/pulley drive system that automatically varies the ratio between the engine output shaft and the rear wheel. That sounds fully automatic to me. CVT falls under the automatic “type.”

The Honda DCT will engage and disengage the drive to the rear wheels automatically when starting and stopping. The transmission also automatically engages the gear set as needed for the proper ratio between the engine and rear wheel. It does all of this with no operator intervention. It sounds like it’s fully automatic to me, not semi automatic.

If you define the DCT as “a manual transmission fitted with two clutches”, what defines that transmission as “manual?” Do people think because it has paired gear sets as opposed to planetary gears, that it’s a “manual?” If so, I don’t see how the gear arrangement defines a transmission as manual or not manual. What’s important is whether the transmission operates with or without a required interaction with the operator.

670cc - the manual transmission in a DCT semi-automatic transmission is the same manual transmission in a bike with a clutch.

 

[kpinvt]

Or... Eliminate D-S and M-T switches and leave +/- shifting. Now you HAVE to change gears by yourself, right? Does it still count as "automatic"?!?

Yeah, sort of. Remove those switches and change nothing else, the bike will shift down but not up on its' own.

 

[Afan]

Yeah, sort of. Remove those switches and change nothing else, the bike will shift down but not up on its' own.

Yes, that's good point...

 

[Techrat]

Wrong. It does shift up.

Yeah, sort of. Remove those switches and change nothing else, the bike will shift down but not up on its' own.

Actually your statement is totally incorrect. I had a 2016 DCT and as long as you were not set in (M)anual mode the gears are set to upshift when the engine reaches different RPMs called "shift points". I would take mine out in (D)rive mode or if I was hitting a highway, (S)port mode, get it up to 6th gear and never touch the thumb paddles. If you remove those paddles, it will still upshift on its own.

Techrat

 

[TheIronWarrior]

670cc - the manual transmission in a DCT semi-automatic transmission is the same manual transmission in a bike with a clutch.

Not exactly true, the D in DCT stands for Dual, meaning two clutches. One clutch handles odd numbered gears, one handles evens. The manual transmission has one clutch. The design and function of the clutch and gears is essentially the same, but the transmission is pretty different from the one in the non-DCT bike.

The long and the short of it (as I see it, feel free to disagree) is that a true MANUAL transmission can only be operated MANUALLY. If the machine is capable of operating it AUTOMATICALLY for you, it's an AUTOMATIC transmission. There are many styles of AUTOMATIC transmission, such as the traditional automatic we all know and hate with a torque converter and planetary gears, the DCT, and the CVT. Just because it's not a TRADITIONAL AUTOMATIC doesn't mean it's a MANUAL. Arguing that since you can set it to M and push buttons to change gears makes it MANUAL means basically everything is a MANUAL, since even cars with AUTOMATIC transmissions for the most part have tip/tap shift, or at least a couple of gear selection options.

 

[Junkie]

If you put an electric shifter and auto clutch on a manual transmission bike, does that make it auto? How about if you have the parts installed but the shifter turned off, and you're using it like a stock bike?

 

[TheIronWarrior]

If you put an electric shifter and auto clutch on a manual transmission bike, does that make it auto? How about if you have the parts installed but the shifter turned off, and you're using it like a stock bike?

Again, just my opinion and not meant to be a definitive definition, but:
Does the transmission have the capability to automatically select the gear for you, or do you have to manually select the gear? While I agree that's a bit more of a gray area (and more of a custom mechanism scenario, I'd imagine), my personal line is whether the machine has the ability to select the gear or not. Others may disagree.

 

[Afan]

Actually your statement is totally incorrect. I had a 2016 DCT and as long as you were not set in (M)anual mode the gears are set to upshift when the engine reaches different RPMs called "shift points". I would take mine out in (D)rive mode or if I was hitting a highway, (S)port mode, get it up to 6th gear and never touch the thumb paddles. If you remove those paddles, it will still upshift on its own.

Techrat

We were talking about the M mode only...

 

[Afan]

... Does the transmission have the capability to automatically select the gear for you, or do you have to manually select the gear?...

Just to add some salt and pepper... If in M mode you HAVE to select the gear (shift up) otherwise you'll hit the limiter. But, as previously stated, if you are slowing down you don't need to shift down - the bike will do it for you.
Semi automatic?

 

[670cc]

Just to add some salt and pepper... If in M mode you HAVE to select the gear (shift up) otherwise you'll hit the limiter. But, as previously stated, if you are slowing down you don't need to shift down - the bike will do it for you.
Semi automatic?

Isn't it the same thing in a torque converter/planetary gear automobile transmission? If you put the “PRNDL” in “1”, it will hold 1st until it hits the rev limiter. If you then select “2” it will shift up to second and hold 2nd until you hit the rev limiter, but when slowing I believe it will shift back to first. Would that be called a semi automatic?

 

[GregC]

So is there a difference between DCT in “M” mode and, say, the BMW Gear Shift Assist Pro (I know there is a big difference mechanically and electrically)? Both allow “clutchless shifting” up and down by the rider.

My key point in all of this (and the length of the responses I think bears this out) is that to further the adoption of DCT technology - which I think would attract younger, nontraditional riders - they need to get away from “manual or automatic” and speak to clutchless shifting with an option to let the bike shift if the rider chooses.

I’d just like to have a lot of bikes to choose from with this technology, because right now it’s Honda (CB, NC, VFR, AT, or GW) or nothing.


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[Afan]

Isn't it nearly the same thing in a torque converter/planetary gear automobile transmission? If you put the “PRNDL” in “2”, it will shift up to second and hold 2nd until you hit the rev limiter, but when slowing I believe it will shift back to first. Semi automatic?

I don't know because I always had manual transmission cars. REAL manual.
But, I believe you.




Hm... I'm gonna test it on my wife's car. when she's not around, of course - she would kill me see me messing up with her Mustang!

 

[670cc]

My key point in all of this (and the length of the responses I think bears this out) is that to further the adoption of DCT technology - which I think would attract younger, nontraditional riders - they need to get away from “manual or automatic” and speak to clutchless shifting with an option to let the bike shift if the rider chooses.

I’d just like to have a lot of bikes to choose from with this technology, because right now it’s Honda (CB, NC, VFR, AT, or GW) or nothing.

The other motorcycle manufacturers may be taking a wait and see posture to see if automatic transmissions boost Honda’s sales in those categories. If so, I’d expect them to not necessarily use DCT, but to develop their own variety of friendly transmissions in hopes to better Honda, not just equal them, or to appeal to a slightly different audience. If auto transmissions of various sorts do catch on, many years from now the less favorable designs will fall by the wayside and one or two will stand out. Who knows, it might be the DCT.

I think where Honda needs to catch up is in putting automatic transmissions on entry level bikes in the 250-500cc range. (A Honda factory rep asked me my opinion on that during a survey done at WingDing). Right now the ticket to DCT requires 750cc+ motorcycle. It’s possible that DCT puts the cost of the small bikes on the edge of being non competitive in pricing.

In parallel with this you have the emerging electric motorcycle field, where most often you have no clutch or selectable transmission gears at all. Climb on; twist throttle. The new rider doesn’t even need to fiddle with an engine or transmission.

 

[GgarryP]

Automatical VS Manual is OLD school categories that don't really capture the variety of transmission designs available today. If you insist, yes, the DCT is an automatic. But it's vastly different from the traditional automatic and it is not helpful or informative to simply call it an automatic.

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[TheIronWarrior]

So is there a difference between DCT in “M” mode and, say, the BMW Gear Shift Assist Pro (I know there is a big difference mechanically and electrically)? Both allow “clutchless shifting” up and down by the rider.

I bleieve Gear Shift Assist Pro Magic Fairy Dust works the same as most other aftermarket quick shifters where it cuts fuel flow briefly when the gear selector is pushed up or down. You can do the same thing and clutchlessly shift a bike with traditional manual transmission by applying pressure to the shift pedal and blipping the throttle to unload the transmission, the Magic Fairy Dust systems just to the unloading for you. Gear selection is still a manual process and the machine is not capable of selecting a gear for you.

 

[Junkie]

Isn't it the same thing in a torque converter/planetary gear automobile transmission? If you put the “PRNDL” in “1”, it will hold 1st until it hits the rev limiter. If you then select “2” it will shift up to second and hold 2nd until you hit the rev limiter, but when slowing I believe it will shift back to first. Would that be called a semi automatic?

in the 99 Subaru Outback I had, 1 was 1, 2 was 2, 3 was 1,2,3, D was 1,2,3,4.

In comparison, I believe my truck (73 Chevy C20) 1 is 1, 2 is 1,2, 3 is 1,2,3. I think my Camry allows use of 1 when in 2 as well.

Not sure why Subaru is different.

 

[Therapy]

I have an auto loader which many call an automatic but not in the ignoramus view. That view holds that it is fully automatic. But it is not.
I have a XD which I tell people is an automatic at first and if they want to hear more I explain more. I don't want to shoot holes in what you all have said partly because I did not bother to read it all. It was repetitive. Some (my brother - an older fart than I am) just will not give up old style manuals. Even his Toyota. Sheesh!
Moving on.

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