Engine Stuttering ??? Advice or Thoughts???

[showkey]

It appears the pump, is in short supply. On a critical part like the pump, Honda might have stock but control the release the parts so that a bike that's down gets priority over a stocking part. On a back order part that is critical Honda maybe getting few in overnight from the supplier or Japan. Those critical parts will not show on the dealer part inquire system.
The pump is expensive so that chance of a dealer stocking that part is really unlikely in these days of one day service from the Honda parts warehouse.

Hopefully there is one doing with Fuzzy name on it..........

 

[L.B.S.]

I have no way of telling if this ends up being they take your money, and *then* tell you it's on back order, but...?


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Dayum there appear to be some quite conflicting prices showing up with but a few quick google looks

Way cheaper, I wonder why?

#16700-MGS-D33: Honda. PUMP ASSEMBLY, FUEL

 

[L.B.S.]

An interesting thing-

A Honda Fit fuel pump is 45-55 psi pressure, and 35-45 gallons per hour flow rate.

The NCX fuel pump is 50 psi pressure, and about 22 gallons per hour flow rate.

When I still had my F800, there were a few owners with dead fuel pumps, that were experimenting with "generic" fuel pump replacements, to avoid the high cost and/or backordered until the next century bmw pumps.

It sure would be cool to find a 50-ish psi and 25-ish gph readily available cheap pump, that could be scavenged or modified to suit somehow, eh? I'm talking more along the lines of an emergency back up kinda thing, to save you from being stranded far from home, or waiting for weeks/months on end for a back ordered unit.

Just day dreaming...

 

[showkey]

^^^^^^^^^^^^ agree

50 PSI is a common pressure and the most important spec. If you were stranded, I am pretty sure another Honda motorcycle fuel pump could be grafted on to the NC tank fixture.

 

[Fuzzy]

Checked with dealer this afternoon. Latest from Honda is they (Honda) will get my pump on July 7. He says it is typically another 4 days for him to get making it July 11. I will apparently miss a second weekend of riding.

 

[turbodieseli4i6]

I feel for ya Fuzzy! This thread has got me to thinking of an auxiliary tank with a fuel pump that will work with our engine. Also more common and less costly.
It would flat suck having this problem anywhere, especially a long way from home.

 

[LM15]

Fuzzy, any update on the fuel pump assembly?

 

[L.B.S.]

I feel for ya Fuzzy! This thread has got me to thinking of an auxiliary tank with a fuel pump that will work with our engine. Also more common and less costly.
It would flat suck having this problem anywhere, especially a long way from home.

It would be awesome to try and find a relatively common external pump, that you could somehow plumb into the lines via a couple quick release fittings, in an emergency, eh?


(Random example, not a specifically chosen one)

MSD 2225 Fuel Pump Electric High Pressure External Inline Universal Ea | eBay

 

[L.B.S.]

I think that in theory it's little bit more complicated. Usually injectors require pretty constant range of fuel pressure (30-50 PSI? - maybe?) Pump usually must to deliver much higher pressure, so pressure regulator has to be in-line and fuel return line from regulator to tank.
In practice - we'll never know till someone try it.

You'd be surprised, there are a bazillion threads on the 'net with people using off the shelf fuel pumps with sketchy psi or gph numbers, and having great success for years. A lot of pumps use the voltage supplied as a natural "governer" for their psi output capability range, and as long as a pump was rated close to or not much above the oem specs, I think it would be ok.

Off hand I don't know exactly how the flow rate is determined on our NCX's, whether it's a return of excess back to the tank, or an on demand with no return. My BMW was a non-return variety, and despite that being the more complex of the two choices, people did put in alternative fuel pumps from various models of cars, and they seemed to work just fine.


Again, I'm pretty much talking emergency here, so it would strictly be viewed as a limp home or to civilization kind of thing.

 

[Fuzzy]

Last Friday the dealer's information was Honda expected to have it Tuesday. If that happened it should be at the dealer end of this week or early next week.

 

[Fuzzy]

I think that in theory it's little bit more complicated. Usually injectors require pretty constant range of fuel pressure (30-50 PSI? - maybe?) Pump usually must to deliver much higher pressure, so pressure regulator has to be in-line and fuel return line from regulator to tank.
In practice - we'll never know till someone try it.

Mechanic put pressure gage on and went for a ride. Told me the pressure was fluctuating around 60 psi but should have been rock steady. It would drop as low as 30 psi without affecting apparent performance. Then it would drop to 10 psi and engine stopped.

 

[dduelin]

Many if not all late model Honda motorcycles use the same fuel pump of course mounted in different assemblies. The same pump is used in many Honda automobiles and is commonly sold for $70 to $90 on line and about $100 to $120 in auto parts stores. Google 2000 Honda Accord fuel pump for many choices or try HFP-382. While many folks are in Fuzzy's position and it makes sense to replace the entire assembly with OEM some folks order an OEM fuel filter and R & R the pump with an aftermarket pump doing the labor themselves for about $120 - $150. I'm fortunate to have a garage, time, and tools and did this job at 120,000 miles on my ST1300 just because I plan on keeping the ST for a long time and want no problems on the road. Eventually someone will or already has replaced a NC700X pump with an HFP-382.

 

[turbodieseli4i6]

Amazon.com: HFP-382 Intank Replacement Fuel Pump Kit with Strainer: Automotive

Thanks for the information Dave. It appears this pump is used in a lot of vehicles and motorcycles.
You just saved me a bunch of money in the future.

 

[Ruggybuggy]

Many if not all late model Honda motorcycles use the same fuel pump of course mounted in different assemblies. The same pump is used in many Honda automobiles and is commonly sold for $70 to $90 on line and about $100 to $120 in auto parts stores. Google 2000 Honda Accord fuel pump for many choices or try HFP-382. While many folks are in Fuzzy's position and it makes sense to replace the entire assembly with OEM some folks order an OEM fuel filter and R & R the pump with an aftermarket pump doing the labor themselves for about $120 - $150. I'm fortunate to have a garage, time, and tools and did this job at 120,000 miles on my ST1300 just because I plan on keeping the ST for a long time and want no problems on the road. Eventually someone will or already has replaced a NC700X pump with an HFP-382.

That very good information.

 

[Fuzzy]

Called dealer yesterday. Honda moved availability date back another week to July 14. Could be a while.

 

[Fuzzy]

Talked to dealer last night. Honda has moved expected ship date two more weeks to July 27.

 

[Ruggybuggy]

Could you buy a HFP-HFP -382 that Dave had mentioned from Amazon and have them install it? No way I would want to wait that long.

I just checked, Amazon has them in stock and get it by July 20th. Cost was $70.

 

[Hammy]

Riding home yesterday I topped off with 2 gallons of gas from a station I frequent. The previous day I had put 3.4 gallons in at the same pump. 30 miles down the road accelerating after a curve the engine started cutting out like it was trying to buck be off the bike. Would do it any time I put a bit extra throttle on. Probably doing all the time but not noticeable cruising at constant speed. Switched plans to shortest route home but that was still 40 miles away. Got worse to the point that climbing hills it would be like the engine pulled a couple seconds then cut off a second or two. Trouble maintaining highway speeds.

I tried cycling the DCT through the modes and could tell no difference. In manual tried different gears with no difference. By the time I got home my arms were tired from the jerking.

Battery seems fine. Checked at outlet in Frunk 12.8 volts with engine off. 13.4 volts at idle and 14.0 volts revving engine. Can not tell any issue revving with bike on center stand. Stopped bike in gear with stop switch to verify it had juice to put in neutral when turned on. Plenty of juice to start engine. Cycled stop switch a few times in case of bad connection in switch, but have chased no wires.

To me it is like the engine is starving for gas like when an engine runs out of gas and gets intermittent gas from nearly empty tank. My guesses are either bad gas, something with fuel injector, something with fuel pump or nearly clogged fuel filter.

Got home late with no time to do any more last night. I had to leave town for work this morning and will only be home two brief evenings in the next two weeks. T

Tomorrow on the way home I plan to pick up a siphon to drain the gas tank and put fresh gas in to see if that makes a difference. I will also verify battery connections are tight.

What thoughts do people have on possible cause / solution? Where is the fuel filter and how difficult to change?

Sorry if I leave folks in suspense too long as it could be a couple weeks or more for me to do any extensive trouble shooting or take to dealer.

The same thing started happening to me in the last couple days of the IBR. Had to "limp" home from Albuquerque to Philly with the bike locked in MT 6th gear and riding in between 60 and 75mph. Any time I got cut off or hit a constructing zone where I got slowed down, my bike would act just as you described while downshifting to catch back up to speed.

If the dealer is going to take just as long, I might have to see about getting the Accord pump replacement.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[showkey]

Be careful on fuel pump swaps .........If your thinking of installing a different pump it must be the same PSI or some how use the stock pressure regulator.
The ECU is programmed for a certain pressure to be available and the variable in fuel mixture is injector duration controlled by the ECU. The ECU has no way to know the fuel pressure has changed from stock.

If you have higher fuel pressure the bike will run rich under all conditions........it could be rich enough to melt the CAT. A rich mixture could turn the exhaust cheery red (fire) ........it would be like a carb engine running with the choke on.

The O2 sensor is only a fine tuning of the mixture.........and does not have the range to make up for excessive fuel pressure.

Some of these fuel pump assemblies were replaced to fix fuel gauge issues under warranty........the pump on one of those would be perfect.

 

[L.B.S.]

Be careful on fuel pump swaps .........If your thinking of installing a different pump it must be the same PSI or some how use the stock pressure regulator.
The ECU is programmed for a certain pressure to be available and the variable in fuel mixture is injector duration controlled by the ECU. The ECU has no way to know the fuel pressure has changed from stock.

If you have higher fuel pressure the bike will run rich under all conditions........it could be rich enough to melt the CAT. A rich mixture could turn the exhaust cheery red (fire) ........it would be like a carb engine running with the choke on.

The O2 sensor is only a fine tuning of the mixture.........and does not have the range to make up for excessive fuel pressure.

Some of these fuel pump assemblies were replaced to fix fuel gauge issues under warranty........the pump on one of those would be perfect.

That is a wise outlook, to be sure! YMMV is quite appropriate!

The only alien fuel pumps I would consider, would have to have a very close pressure, and one would have to trust that the fuel pressure regulator would be ok with a certain degree of +/- tolerance. I'm pretty sure they do, as all of the research I have done over the years has never brought to light a dire effect from using a pump with reasonably close to oem psi specs.

The thing that has me a bit stumped for a cut and dry answer, is the flow rate volume. I can never find out exactly if a pump with a 200 gph rating, is just listed as that because it's capable of flowing that amount, and it is a non issue compared to needing a flow rate of only 55 gph, or it is tied in with a specific and intrinsic desirability of the pump characteristics and operation within the fueling program?